my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home

» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Cyan Tracks (Page 10)

This topic comprises 42 pages: 1  2  3  ...  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  ...  40  41  42

Author Topic: Cyan Tracks John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 07-23-2003 10:39 AM                        You can see how dye tracks allow the simplification and streamlining of the ECP-2D process by looking at the ECP-2D process specifications, and how labs process 70mm color prints, which do NOT need soundtrack application: http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/processing/h249/index.shtml Obviously, you eliminate the need for the viscous and caustic soundtrack developer, and the hard-to-maintain applicator wheel or extruder that has to precisely lay a narrow bead of developer on only the analog soundtrack area. If the bead is too narrow, too wide, weaves, splashes into the picture area, or has skips or bubbles, the print is wasted or compromised for quality. You eliminate the need to wash that developer off the film, reducing processing water usage and waste water by about half. Without soundtrack redevelopment, you also eliminate the need for the "First Fixer" and its wash. So the processing machine can have fewer tanks, racks, rollers, and associated plumbing and heat exchangers, and their maintenance. Fewer things to go wrong, fewer things to damage a print during processing. Putting a $$$ figure on the savings will depend on the operating procedures and logistics of the particular lab. The staffing requirements, processing speeds, operational waste, number of replacement reels, maintenance costs, chemical usage, etc. are considered confidential by most labs, and NOT shared with Kodak or industry committees. Modern film laboratories have developed proprietary technology they do not want shared with their competitors. Even when invited into labs, certain areas and data are definitely "off limits" and rightfully confidential. Prints with soundtrack application problems have reached theatres, and have frequently been discussed here. Soundtrack silver "bleeding" into the picture area, blotches or stain in the picture area, weaving causing a "thumping" sound, bubbles and skips causing "pops", lack of any application (Scott Norwood reported one today) etc., are familiar to all, and often result in replacement reels. If each defective reel represents several hundred dollars, you can see why waste from soundtrack application is significant.  |  IP: Logged Oscar Neundorfer Master Film Handler Posts: 275 From: Senoia, GA Registered: May 2000 posted 07-23-2003 10:40 AM                        I went to John P's link to a paper on cross modulation cancellation and it is a great tutorial on the subject of cross modulation. This gives a great deal more detail and explanation than the link I previously gave. Knowing virtually nothing about the film production end of things, I always thought that printing a soundtrack was a no-brainer. However, there is obviously FAR more to getting it right than I would have ever imagined. It is a wonder that a good analog soundtrack can sound as good as it does, considering all the technicalities involved. It also may explain why I have heard a lot of soundtracks that just don't sound worth even when I know beyond any doubt that the sound system is first class. I am not sure I am asking the right question, but here goes. Is it not possible to make the cross modulation cancellation on cyan tracks as good as a conventional track by also adjusting the densities between soundtrack negatives and positives to the optimum point? Or is the optimum point just not as good (no matter what you do) as for a conventional track? Or maybe a better question is this: Is the combination of a red reader and the cyan track the cause of problems related to cross modulation cancellation? I probably don't understand the physics involved, but it seems that cross mod problems are only a soundtrack printing problem and not a reading (playback) problem. So other than the fact that a red reader MUST be used for a cyan track, would another light source (if it could be used) deliver better cross mod results? I know so little about this subject that I am not even sure if my questions have merit, but if they do, maybe someone could enlighten me a bit.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 07-23-2003 10:46 AM                     quote: Putting a $$$ figure on the savings will depend on the operating procedures and logistics of the particular lab. Best guess? (I won't hold it to you)  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 07-23-2003 10:50 AM                        The procedure for minimizing cross-modulation distortion is the same, regardless of the type of analog soundtrack. But it needs to be optimized for a certain set of parameters, including the reader type. When there are a mix of reader types, the optimum point for one may differ from another. If all readers were red LED reverse scan, the optimum point would be easy to define using the cross-mod test.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 07-23-2003 11:18 AM                     John, was the cyan layer chosen, thus requiring a red light, or was the red light chosen, thus requiring a cyan track? Why not a magenta track with a green light, or even a yellow track with a blue light? Do CDS readers use a green source, I know the tracks were magenta? Also, I had a look at the link you posted, what is the purpose of KODAK Chelating Agent, No. 1?  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 07-23-2003 02:24 PM                        The red LED readers preceded the development of the current cyan track, and actually ENABLED it. As I recall, installations of red LED readers began in the early 1990's (e.g., Christie announced their LED reader in 1994), and the cyan dye track project started several years later. At the time, long-life, high output red LED technology was evolving rapidly, spurred on by the automobile (tail-lights) and signalling (traffic signals) industries. Other colors didn't have quite the output yet. The yellow (blue sensitive) layer in print film has to be much faster than the magenta or cyan, as the original negatives are orange in color and printers have low color temperature tunsten lamps. So the grains are much larger, and it is less sharp. Since the eye only gets about 10% of visual information in the blue, the added graininess and lower sharpness is not really an issue for pictures. But for soundtracks, it would degrade performance to use the yellow layer. Note that conventional tracks (cyan + magenta + silver) did NOT use the yellow layer. The Kodak CDS reader used a tungsten light source, and a visual-sensitivity CCD device, and could read the data as dye only or as applicated track.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 07-23-2003 02:35 PM                     I'm getting this feeling that the savings is either astronomical or ultra petty since I've been brushed over twice more on the $ savings issue. John, I would assume you have access to this sort of data since you have a basic working knowledge of lab printing practices as well as being on the dye track committee. If you don't know then who would? (See my post 4 up before you answer. Just a best guess will do.)  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 07-23-2003 02:58 PM                        As I said, laboratories don't share this data, as it is rightfully considered proprietary competitive information. Even providing a "Best guess" would violate the confidence of the labs, and likely be wrong anyway. If you want the data, ask the labs. Operational waste figures and cost of manufacture are considered confidential data by almost every company, regardless of the industry.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-23-2003 08:12 PM                     one problem I regularly encounted was residual print wash noise that was audible on the IR readers but not on the red  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 07-23-2003 08:34 PM                     quote: laboratories don't share this data quote: If you want the data, ask the labs. Oh ok, makes perfect sense. This whole situation is just ridiculous. It is documented that conventional tracks are superior to cyan and too many people are confusing "red" with "reverse scan". If cyan prints will save so much money in printing and reel replacement (see Pytlak's first post on this page), then one would expect for the labs to pass along the savings to the studios. As such, the studios should do their part by covering shipping costs or lowering percentages or something to help benefit the theaters if they are so adamant about converting for the environmental issues or for their own savings in their pocketbook. Heck if nothing else deliver the prints on Wednesdays so theaters don't have to blow their payroll on Thursday nights as the projection staff frantically tries to throw together a bunch of prints! It just seems the studios could do something in return. It certainly isn't making better movies.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 07-23-2003 09:48 PM                        quote: Oh ok, makes perfect sense. Thanks for appreciating my dilemma. Even though there will certainly be cost savings and sales of red LED readers, I personally believe that the most important factor for most of us is to help the environment and help with water conservation.  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 07-23-2003 10:28 PM                  John, you were doing good until you edited your post and added: "I personally believe that the most important factor for most of us is to help the environment and help with water conservation." While I am all for conservation and the enviornment, I don't feel that "most" feel like that is the most important factor. Please do not lump me in with all the "tree-huggers". I think in the REAL world it has to be a trade-off between sanity and insanity.... >>> Phil  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 07-23-2003 10:37 PM                    I'd bet one large farm converting to more efficient irrigation would more than offset all the water used by the labs. Arrange that and we can keep our high quality, nearly fadeproof soundtracks.  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 07-24-2003 03:15 AM                        or how about not making so many prints, spreading them more thinly (only one per theater in normal circumstances), and encouraging theaters to take better care of them. less water used in making fewer prints, less waste when they're destroyed/less material to have to recover. carl  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 07-24-2003 06:01 AM                        When I wrote "most of us", I meant those who favor conversion to cyan dye tracks. Large print runs have become a "fact of life" for any major release. Encouraging theatres to take better care of prints is one of the focal points of my career, and the whole idea behind "Film Done Right".  |  IP: Logged

All times are Central (GMT -6:00)

This topic comprises 42 pages: 1  2  3  ...  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  ...  40  41  42

Printer-friendly view of this topic

Hop To: Select a Forum: Category: Operations -------------------- Digital Cinema Forum Film Handlers' Forum Large Format Forum Ground Level Feature Info, Trailer Attachments & REAL Credit Offsets Category: Community -------------------- Film-Yak Film Handlers' Movie Reviews The Afterlife Bob Maar's Joke-A-Thon Category: Classified -------------------- Equipment and Supplies Wanted/For Sale Help Wanted/Seeking Employment Category: System -------------------- Software Beta Testing Forum

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.