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Topic: Cyan Tracks
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John Pytlak
Film God
Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 07-28-2003 03:42 PM
Steve wrote:
quote:
John, I've also noticed that the high-magenta tracks are more translucent than the conventional cyan+magenta+redeveloper...I would think that would increase the noise and lower the overall dynamic range. Perhaps, that is another reason why high-magenta was not used when increasing the quality of the soundtrack was important.
You know full well the driving force for "high magenta" was to make the prints more compatible with the MIX of red LED and old tungsten exciter lamp readers. Tens of thousands of theatres have installed reverse scan red LED readers for the advantages they offer (and not just cyan dye tracks), to the point that most theatres are using red readers. IR (infrared) LEDs had their chance, and did not carve out significant market share. Only "die-hards" claim 70-year old tungsten exciter lamp technology is preferable to today's reverse scan LED readers. If so, let's go back to vacuum phototubes while we're at it. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Since there is a known significant cross-modulation difference between red and tungsten readers with conventional (cyan+magenta+silver) analog tracks, maybe you would prefer that they be used and optimized for the red LED readers that are now in the significant MAJORITY of theatres? I like it. ![[evil]](graemlins/evil.gif) Red LED readers would have near zero cross-mod distortion with conventional tracks, while tungsten and IR readers would have sibilance. "High magenta" tracks make the best of the MIXED reader situation we find today.
BTW, one reason a few labs have not converted to "high magenta" is that they cannot get enough green light in their printers, since green filters are often inefficient.
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John Hawkinson
Film God
Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 07-31-2003 07:30 PM
I kind of wish maybe we had seperate threads for the "rhetoric" and the actual real meaty questions and answers...it's easy for stuff to get lost. Maybe someone should go back and review any outstanding questions? [like digital correction XM distortion?]
John P., I do have a question for you, about XM distortion (thanks again for the detailed link!). In reading H44, I see the Day to Day Operations section recommends an XM test should be recorded "every time a negative is made, ...[or] every 3rd or 5th roll, or perhaps only once per shift."
Does that reflect current practice?
If so, what happens to those tests? It might be nice to see them on the occasional release print leader in order to see how bad the XM distortion is on a particular reader.
I guess if I had to speculate, they print the XM test through to the first release prints, and then cut them off the dupe neg so they don't waste film on release prints?
Ah, well.
--jhawk
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John Pytlak
Film God
Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 07-31-2003 07:55 PM
Generally, the "sound houses" that actually record the sound negatives work closely with the labs to choose the combination of sound negative density (exposure in the recorder) and print density that gives the least distortion and best S/N on for the equipment parameters being used (sound recorder, printer, tungsten/red LED reader, film type, process). The cross-modulation test outlined by the SMPTE standard and Kodak publication is the primary tool used.
When the lab makes the prints, the primary production control for the exposure of the analog track is the print density of a control patch on the track. For a dye+silver track, an IR densitometer is used. For a cyan track, Status A red density will be used to measure the track density. A cross-mod test exposure is NOT usually included in the actual printing negative, as it would be much too long.
Here is the website of NT Audio/Video, one of the sound houses in Los Angeles:
http://www.ntaudio.com/audio_overview.html
http://www.ntaudio.com/audio_opticalsnd.html
http://www.ntaudio.com/credits.html#completed
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Stephen Furley
Film God
Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002
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posted 08-01-2003 06:34 PM
I had a 'phone call at work today, just before lunch, to ask if I could do some projection work this evening; that's five hours notice, much more than I normally get. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) As it was at a place I haven't worked for about eighteen months, I asked if they had made any changes in that time. Only one, they have converted to red. Jaxlights, or something similar. I was expecting them to be brighter than they were.
I thought I was finally going to be able to judge these things for myself. I should have been running two films, but one print didn't turn up until 45 minutes after it was due on scren. It's a changeover house, so if it had been just a few minutes late we could have run it on 2000s, but not that late, so it was replaced by an extra screening of the other film. Maybe I've been lucky, but I've never had that happen before.
Film had conventional track, not high magenta, but the track wasn't very good anyway, so I'm no more knowledgable now than I was before. Perhaps they'll call me up again when they're running something with a better track.
There was quite a long gap between screenings, If I'd known before, I would have taken some samples of various types of tracks with me to try.
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Ted Costas
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 119
From: Hollywood, CA, USA
Registered: May 2000
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posted 08-06-2003 02:31 PM
Wow! That's a lotta posts, and thanks to John Pytlak, I can reply without trying to answer questions, opinions and/or rants. I don't think anyone mentioned the article in the Hollywood Reporter (July 16, 2003) that came out a day before the fax went out, the fax many of you are referring to.
This project has been a discussion for many years. Extensive tests were done, theatres began converting, but like many of you said, "Is this for real?"
Yes. It is. In the Hollywood Reporter, Mark Christiansen of DreamWorks is quoted saying that, "'Anything Else' is not set for an ultra-wide run, which makes the conversion process more manageable." This is the first title to be released 100% with Cyan Dye Tracks.
This title is what this effort has needed for some time. I have personally spoken with many of the major studios representatives, both inside the Dye Track Committee meetings and outside them. There is no single studio that has expessed that it is against the move to cyan dye tracks... yet, every studio, including DreamWorks, has expressed reservations about being the "first fish in the pond," or as some have put it, the "guinea pig."
It is imperative that this release is a successful one. And DreamWorks doesn't plan on it being anything but successful.
Yes, we need more titles to make this a reality. Yes, we need theatres to stop dragging their feet and convert to red light readers. Yes, we need more studios to jump on board to make this happen. Yes, we need the information to get out. And as shown by this Forum, the information is out, and everyone is all over the map in their feelings and opinions about it.
So DreamWorks has stepped up to the plate. 'Anything Else' will come out on September 19th, 2003, which is now about six weeks away. So far, the campaign to "spread the word" has been working. Getting the information out is key because if you are a theatre that was waiting to see if this was for real, we need to give you time to recognize the reality (an actual title), and subsequently, covert to a red light reader, if you haven't already.
The word is out. The Fax, the press, the web site, the discussion... that much has worked, so far. And Brad, I guess you could read into the fax (incorrectly) that the line, "Digital playback is not affected by this process," means that if you have digital sound, you don't have to convert. I guess we should have said, "... unless your digital playback reverts to analog as your back-up track." Yeah, okay.
I'm not going to mention the environmental benefits, of which there are meany, or the cost savings to the labs, which they may or may not pass along the the studios. I'm just glad the word is out, and you all are talking about it. A successful release by DreamWorks will mean "more fish jumping into the pond." The spread of information is vital to the cause, and although we have found that, yes, there are theatres "holding out" for a real reason to convert. This title is the first real reason, and soon, there will be more.
So here's a question: How many theatre technicians does it take to screw in a red light reader? (Ha, ha)
Yours, Ted
Cyan Dye Track Evangelist
Can I get an "Amen!"
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