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Author Topic: Cyan Tracks Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 07-20-2003 11:14 PM                        It doesn`t make completely sense to me not to see to it that all (or at least most) prints are collected for recycling which, silver soundtrack or not, would make much more sense than propagating a product that is "safe to throw away". Really, when I started reading this topic, I was convinced of the conversion but would have liked to spend the money for it elsewhere first. Now it looks more and more to me that exhibitors have been had once more on a grand scale. How big is the market for red LED readers that we are looking at? Or let`s just see how many screens are there in the US alone?  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 07-21-2003 07:34 AM                    John remarked: So in the years before Kodak introduced more stable cyan dyes in the early 1980's, the analog soundtracks DID fade. Bah. On a traditional incandescent system the bulk of the signal is coming from IR which is the major spectra of light a conventional light bulb gives off and is picked up by old photocells as well as solar cells. It is the need to modulate IR passage through the film which is the reason for silver redevelopment in the first place, the dye image alone being pretty much transparent to IR. So cyan fading in the track has very little effect on playback. Obviously that's not true of a track which consists only of cyan dye.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 07-21-2003 08:56 AM                        In an older cyan + magneta + silver analog soundtrack, the cyan dye did most of the modulation in the red portion of the spectrum, as its red density was much greater than the silver.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 07-21-2003 11:02 AM                        Paul Thompson asked: quote: Now I wonder how DTS is going to stand up to (shall I say for lack of better words) the "new format?" If anything, DTS should benefit from conversion to cyan dye analog tracks. Their timecode reader is already red LED, so the cyan dye produces a strong timecode signal. The silver redevelopment can add variability to reading the DTS timecode, if the edge of the silver application wanders back-and-forth across the DTS timecode, as is sometimes does now. DTS has been well represented on the industry Dye Track Committee.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 07-21-2003 03:46 PM                    Cyan may have done most of the modulating of the red portion of the spectrum but the red portion or indeed any visible spectra cannot not constitute the majority of the signal. Most of the energy is in IR and the dyes are transparent to IR. Why would they be applicating tracks and why is red light needed for cyan if this is not so?  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 07-21-2003 04:15 PM                        In a fading print with silver + dye tracks, dye fading likely will change the image spread of the overall track (even read with a white light reader), moving the XM distortion off optimum. The point is, citing the poor cyan dye stability of a product that has not been made in over 20 years as a reason not to convert is a "RED Herring". (Pun intended). Like any engineering or business decision, you weigh the advantages and disadvantages. IMHO, the advantages of cyan dye analog tracks far outweigh the disadvantages. And environmental responsibility does still matter to some of us. As I noted before, with less print waste, the film manufacturers will likely sell LESS film than they otherwise might.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-21-2003 05:32 PM                     The poor cyan stability is NOT a red herring! I ask again...has there been ANY long-term testing on the stability of cyan tracks? As in, in 5-years, how will the tracks play? How much more suseptable are they to noise from dirt and debries. The engineering practices used by the cyan-scam are reckless and embarassing. The scare tacticts used by the same group for the last 5-years are also shameful. Cyan is a bad move at this time in film's life. Steve  |  IP: Logged Bruce Hansen Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 847 From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-21-2003 06:07 PM                     Looking at the "small" number of prints being made, could this be a "test", something like the dual inventory test they tried a few years ago that ended in desestor, when cyan prints went to theaters without red readers? If the "test" goes well, we may see the conversion going foward to more cyan prints, if the test goes badly, we may not see more cyan prints for a year or two.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 07-21-2003 06:44 PM                        quote: How much more suseptable are they to noise from dirt and debries. The engineering practices used by the cyan-scam are reckless and embarassing. The scare tacticts used by the same group for the last 5-years are also shameful. Cyan is a bad move at this time in film's life. Please look in a mirror to see who is using "scare tactics". The cyan dye layer is the MIDDLE imaging layer in color print film. Any emulsion-side projector abrasion affects the top layers first, which are the clear gelatin protective layer, and the magenta layer. Both traditional (magenta + cyan + silver) and "high magenta" (magenta + silver) use the magenta layer for to carry soundtrack information, so if anything, they would be damaged more easily (that's why emulsion scratches start out as green, as the magenta layer is abraded). Also, the gelatin in emulsion provides most of the physical strength. Usually, the more other "stuff" in there (like silver grains), the weaker the structural integrity. Generally, silver-image B&W print films have needed more post-process lubrication to improve print life and reduce emulsion shedding.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 07-21-2003 09:42 PM                    The environmental issue seems also to be a non-starter. You could accomplish more with less overall trouble by doing more to encourage recycling. Perhaps a slitting machine to slice out the track area for silver recovery would improve the efficiency of this operation. Likewise improved laboratory processes might reduce what waste there is, again with less trouble to the industry as a whole.  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 07-21-2003 09:54 PM                  I totally agree with Steve and Steve. This is nothing more than a scam to save $ for labs and the theatres be damned...again. Worldwide! I like Steve's idea about slitting the film to recover the silver soundtrack. >>> Phil  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-21-2003 10:29 PM                     John, Once again, you have not answered the question, how much testing has been done on the stability of the cyan dye track over a period of time (years). I do not employ "scare tactics" the dye track people do everytime they threatened and did not deliver on it. The dye track people show their lack of credibility every time they publish deliberately misleading information regarding cyan's performance or high-magenta's. At the end of the day, no matter how you cut it... a conventional applicated track will have the best performance of the methods currently in use. Phil, if you want to look at the $$$ trail...take a peek at Dolby...see what percentage of red-light sources come from them..sure there are JaxLights and Lasers out there but Dolby will enjoy a percentage of the marketplace that they probably never had with sound systems. And what's better, they have a limited life-span much shorter than a cinema processor. Steve  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 07-21-2003 10:39 PM                        Most of the environmental advantages come from the savings in water required to wash off the caustic soundtrack developer, which is a major portion of the water used to process prints. As I stated before, Kodak FPC already offers print recycling programs that include silver recovery, but many prints go elsewhere and may just be burned or put into landfills. Not to mention all the NEW prints that are scrapped annually because of soundtrack application problems. Slitting off the analog soundtrack is impractical for the billions of feet recycled annually, and you would still have to deal with handling that 0.1 inch wide strip and getting the silver out of it.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-21-2003 10:44 PM                     Nit picking a bit but the soundtrack is .2" wide and I would guess the application area (with weave) would be somewhat wider than that so lets call it 300mils wide. Steve  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 07-21-2003 10:51 PM                        Steve Guttag wrote: quote: Nit picking a bit but the soundtrack is .2" wide and I would guess the application area (with weave) would be somewhat wider than that so lets call it 300mils wide Steve: You ARE nitpicking, more than a "bit". Read Standard SMPTE 40. The analog track width is Dimension A - Dimension B 0.308 - 0.192 = 0.116 inches SMPTE 111 (Printed Area) says the same thing. Or am I not allowed to round? (I wrote 0.1 inches) You're letting your emotions cloud your engineering judgements.  |  IP: Logged

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