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Author
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Topic: Cyan Tracks
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Warren Smyth
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 158
From: Auckland ,New Zealand
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 02-18-2004 06:50 PM
quote:
that is a saving that will affect the viability of a lab's pricing structure
Is there is a scrap of evidence that the viability of their pricing structure is in jeopardy? Let's take an example, which represents a small but no doubt typical one. In my part of the world the number of prints available for a title would once have been about four or five. Now, in the post multiplex era, fifty is common. There were a hundred and twenty produced for Return of the King. Now tell me, a business that has seen a ten fold turn over increase in demand for their product, is their pricing structure really likely to be at risk?
I can well understand that equipment suppliers and installation engineers who face a slow down in theatre construction in their territory may be getting squeezed. One doesn't have to be too bright to realize which side of the cyan fence these people are likely to be on.
If we take the cyan business model a step further, it has almost endless possibilities. For example, Brad might persuade the labs that they can save by dropping yet another stage in the process, that of lubrication. We will then have prints which require Film Guard to prevent jumping in the gate. Naturally, exhibitors who refuse to co-operate can put up with the unsteady image just like the 11 db drop in audio with exciter lamps. Sound familiar? Something else is familiar, one sector makes money while another writes the cheques. What a bonanza for equipment manufacturers and installation engineers. Also, I think Brad's bank manager could likewise be very impressed.
Now I know that Brad would never entertain such a scam, his ethics would not permit it. In fact in some parts of the world (including Australia) it could even be deemed illegal, if it could be established that collusion for profit had taken place between two sectors of the industry. The irony is that some may say the ethics of this plan would be higher than that of cyan tracks because at least audiences would be seeing a clean image. The cost burden to exhibitors, while compulsary, would produce some benefit to them. Brad therefore would not have to resort to environmental spin to attempt to justify it.
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John Pytlak
Film God
Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 02-18-2004 09:09 PM
Just as a reminder as to the added complexity, added chemical and water usage, and potential waste in redeveloping silver into the analog soundtrack area, see the section on "Optical Sound Processing" in the ECP-2D processing manual:
ECP-2D Process Manual H-24-09
quote:
Troubleshooting Guide
Use the following outline as a troubleshooting guide for
sound track control:
Stripe Too Wide
Contamination of the picture area must be avoided.
1. Check the application/film gap. It may be too narrow.
2. Check whether the squeegees before the developer
applicator are adequately drying the film.
3. Check the developer viscosity. It may be too low.
4. Remix the developer. The hexylene glycol level may
be too high.
Stripe Too Narrow
This condition can cause sound distortion, improper volume,
and noise.
1. Check the applicator/film gap. It may be too wide.
2. Check the applicator wheel for grease and dirt.
Remove grease with a solvent.
3. Check the developer viscosity. It may be too high.
4. Remix the developer. The hexylene glycol level may
be too low.
Stripe Varies in Width Systematically
This condition can cause sound distortion, improper volume,
and noise. A certain amount of width variability is normal
with density changes. Check:
1. The backup roller and applicator wheel for dirt.
2. The applicator gap.
3. For damage to the backup roller or applicator wheel
shafts or bearing (if the problem is severe). If the
bearings are replaced, the applicator wheel may need
to be reground to obtain concentricity on the new
bearings.
Stripe Weaves
This condition can cause sound distortion, improper volume,
and noise. Check:
1. The guide rollers for dirt.
2. Alignment of guide rollers.
Stripe Erratic or “Blippy”
This condition can cause sound distortion, improper volume,
and noise.
1. Check the applicator gap. The solution bead should be
neither squashed nor stretched.
2. Determine if the film is sufficiently dry prior to sound
track developer application. Also, check temperature
of air in sound track venturi squeegee.
3. Check the applicator for dirt.
4. Examine the film drive through the applicator to see if
it is free of vibrations and hesitations. Also, check the
performance of the inertia roller bearings.
5. Check for particles in the sound developer.
6. Check for viscosity of the developer.
7. Check whether an adequate level of developer is being
maintained in the tray.
8. Remix the sound track developer, since hexylene
glycol level may be too low.
Dark Streaks, Flutter, or Spots in the Picture Area
1. Examine the negative original for defects or dirt.
2. Inspect the wash box for faulty operation.
3. Check squeegee before sound track developer to be
sure it is properly drying the film surface.
Although labs catch most of these problems before the defective reels get into theatres, some still get missed. So the important first weekend audience is subjected to problems like splotches along the left side of the image, silver spots in the picture, "thumping" analog sound, etc., as often reported here. So general presentation quality will improve with cyan dye tracks.
Dominic Case is correct, if the labs have less waste, Kodak sells less print film.
Reverse Scan red LED readers have proven their advantages in over a decade of successful use in tens of thousands of theatres worldwide.
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Warren Smyth
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 158
From: Auckland ,New Zealand
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 02-19-2004 01:24 AM
quote:
Not to put down Atlab but they are not one of the big lab players
I agree Gordon and it would be extremely unfair to single out Atlab if they choose to not pass on any savings. I merely highlight a flaw in the appropriation of cost of changing to cyan which will also relates to a larger extent the larger players.
John
quote:
Reverse scan red led readers have proven their advantages in over a decade of successful use in tens of thousands of theatres.
This is yet another example of using an unrelated claim to support the unsupportable. Let's assume the statement is correct. The clear inference, by linking it to the cyan debate, is that the exhibitor and audience benefits technically from better sound quality. They probably do, but cyan tracks are not a pre-requisit of led readers. They are separate issues. Any resultant improved specs would be apparent from led readers playing silver or high magent tracks. You may say that cyan tracks have accelerated the introduction of led readers, but as I have said, shouldn't this be at the option of the exhibitor? This linking of two unrelated developments is an example of how certain sections of the industry push their case.
The linking of cyan tracks with the environment is another. You see, no one can actually argue against the claims because they are correct. However they have little to do with the real motivation for the change to cyan which is to save costs.
Now there is nothing wrong with saving costs and improving the quality of output. However, wouldn't it have been rather nice if those who stood to profit, had offered to provide a helping financial hand to those who were expected to pay. This just might have gone down better than the environmental spin and dire warnings about what would happen if exhibitors didn't convert. Who knows, it might have avoided the reluctance of many exhibitors to convert.
quote:
general presentation quality will be improved with cyan tracks
Well, as I have said in the past John, the jury is still out on the long term effects of these tracks. However, from the point of view of someone who had to get the first reel of Moulin Rouge replaced because of a popping noise, I certainly hope you are right. I hope the quality of prints being produced by the labs will improve for the exhibitor, after all, so far, it looks as if it is THEY, who are bank rolling the cost.
Your very impressive trouble shooting quide list of "added complexity" and no doubt considerable expense, which by inference will be avoided with cyan tracks, certainly adds weight to discounts being provided for customers who receive prints from labs with cyan tracks. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Dominic Case
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 131
From: Sydney NSW Australia
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 02-19-2004 09:17 PM
quote:
Not to put down atlab but they are not one of the big lab players in release printing on the worldwide scale
Hello Gordon! Maybe not, but we frequently print orders in excess of 1000 copies, and supply markets across Australia, New Zealand, Japan and most of SE Asia. We are based in Sydney but also have labs in Melbourne, in Queensland and in New Zealand.
There is no Atlab in India. Perhaps you are thinking of Adlabs. However you are mistaken about the volume of print orders in India. Typically they do small print runs, all off the original negative, and a staggered release through the country (just as was suggested in this very thread - like the old days!) It's well described in this report
www.businessworldindia.com/Nov1003/indepth04.asp
and a typical print run is not 2000+ but 200.
Meanwhile, Warren'a argument about print costs is quite spurious. Our customer is not the theatre, but the studio/distributor. The printing business is very competitive and prices are pared to the bone. When the distributors indicate that they are ready to order cyan track prints, it's just possible ![[Wink]](wink.gif) that they will bring that into the next round of contract negotiations. There's no way that this translates into a windfall for the labs.
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Warren Smyth
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 158
From: Auckland ,New Zealand
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 02-20-2004 01:27 AM
quote:
Warren's argument about print costs is quite spurious, our customer is not the theatre, but the studio/distributor.
You are right Dominic, exhibitors are not your direct customers but there is an economic link between you and the end user.
As an example, when the price of crude oil comes down we get a reduction at the petrol pumps even though motorists never come into contact with the suppliers. It's known as the trickle down effect. In this country the government has been prepared to jump on industries which fail to implement this.
To suggest that such a link is spurious is therefore just a little strong. quote:
When the distributors indicate they are ready to order cyan track prints, it's just possible that they will bring that into the next round of contract negotiations
Do I sense a degree of acceptance that the savings at the labs may be the subject of negotiation to be passed on, or is that a spurious assumption?
Some of my friends who are independent distributors as well as being EXHIBITORS will be pleased to hear that. quote:
there's no way this translates into a windfall for the labs
Dominic I'm sure in your case, you are right but then I've never said it is.
My simple case is that if exhibitors were given some hope of financial help (ultimately reflected in their film hire), or a direct subsidy in conversion cost, you may not be facing the problem that you complain about. While the labs may be setting the agenta for cyan tracks, it seems it is the exhibitors that are determining the timing.
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Scott Norwood
Film God
Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 02-20-2004 05:56 AM
Since we're lucky enough to have someone from a lab. who is helpful enough to participate in this thread, I have to ask this:
What is the actual cost savings per foot (or per print, etc.) of a dye-track print versus a silver-track print? I'm talking about the price paid by the lab. customer (film distributor).
This information seems to be hard to come by. As Brad mentioned at one point, the savings is probably either trivial (in which case the argument in favor of dye tracks becomes weak) or huge (in which case exhibitors would be demanding a chunk of the savings in the form of reduced print rental costs or outright subsidies).
And what about reprints of older color films whose soundtrack negatives were intended to be printed as silver tracks? I believe that it has been mentioned that soundtrack negatives need to be optimized for the type of track (silver, dye, or high magenta) for best results? Will new soundtrack negatives need to be shot when older films are reprinted, will labs retain the capability of printing silver tracks for low-volume reprints (and 16mm)? Or will reprints all have less-than-ideal sound quality?
I can guess that the labs are in favor of dye tracks because it simplifies their processes and reduces costs. Kodak is probably in favor of it because it potentially increases the lifespan of film as a release medium (by reducing the defect rate at labs and by reducing the chance of environmental restrictions on film printing). I can't figure out why anyone at NATO would support it (except maybe for the environmental benefit).
I don't mean to pick on Dominic or John here. They've both been kind enough to contribute to this thread and deserve substantial credit for that alone, even though the issue isn't exactly popular here. I wish we had more lab people who participated here, particularly from the major US labs (Technicolor, Deluxe, Foto-Kem, Du Art, etc., though Atlab prints show up here from time to time, too.)
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