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Topic: Cyan Tracks

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 02-23-2004 02:11 PM

Steve Guttag wrote:

quote:
...there is the perceived environmental benefit...only helps the long-term viability of film as a release medium.

By George, you've got it!

The motion-picture business is a worldwide business, and things like hydroquinone, water usage, and the silver in film that is put into landfills ARE regulated in many countries. Eliminating a complex processing step that wastes about half the water used in film processing would be a very welcome environmental improvement in areas where water use is restricted during drought, like Southern California.

It is about the long-term viability of film as a release medium. From the discussion here, the cost/benefit analysis comparing red LED analog readers and tungsten lamp readers generally seems favorable to red LEDs, even for dye+silver tracks.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-24-2004 08:31 AM

"Eliminating a complex processing step that wastes about half the water used in film processing would be a very welcome environmental improvement in areas where water use is restricted during drought, like Southern California."
_________________________________________________________________

Then all the labs need to do is relocate to either Lake Powell, or Lake Mead. No worry about enough water near those places [Wink]

.

Mark

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 02-24-2004 09:52 AM

Mark wrote:

quote:
Then all the labs need to do is relocate to either Lake Powell, or Lake Mead. No worry about enough water near those places

Really?

You would just be taking from the same water used by Southern California. Nature varies in her abundance, drought one year and floods the next:

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Study/LakeMead/

quote:
The western half of the United States has received far less rain and snow in the past several years than normal. This sustained drought has caused many changes easily detected by NASA’s Earth-observation satellites: dramatic decreases in soil moisture, shrinking snow pack in the Rockies, withering vegetation, more frequent and severe forest fires, and falling water levels in major reservoirs throughout the West.

http://www.usbr.gov/main/news/news_releases/news_2002/2002-09-05.htm

quote:
Continuing drought throughout the western United States has depleted river flows and dried up reservoirs in many areas served by Bureau of Reclamation projects. Although water continues to be delivered in most areas, the storage levels in many Reclamation reservoirs are significantly below average.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-24-2004 06:20 PM

Red LED vs. White Light Cost... The true version..... [thumbsup]

Getting back to the LED vs. White Light debate we actually sell RED LED's for WELL under 100.00 each. I have to replace two tommrrow that have bad segments so I went ahead and checked on the price while I was at it.( I don't do the billing I only repair stuff!) Dealer net on the RED LED is not too much higher than some of the list pricing on the Italian Exciter lamps. That 9% or what ever it was increase mentioned on this thread can hardly be felt.......... [Confused]

This definately puts RED LED's in the cheaper than white light catagory over a 5 year period.

Mark @ CLACO

Mark

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Chris Hipp
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1462
From: Mesquite, Tx (east of Dallas)
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 02-24-2004 09:08 PM

There was an episode of Deep Sea Detectives where they went to the bottom of Lake Mead to check out a B29 bomber. It was pretty cool.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-24-2004 10:13 PM

Geez, Lake Mead is about 1000 plus feet deep in alot of places!! The plane must have been alot shallower than that.

Mark

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Chris Hipp
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1462
From: Mesquite, Tx (east of Dallas)
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 02-24-2004 10:18 PM

I think it is at about 180ft. The most I have seen those guys dive to is 250ft using tri-mix.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-25-2004 04:39 PM

Even with tri mix bottom time would be pretty limited. Its p[robably in pretty good shape sitting at that depth. Unless it broke up why not raise it?
Mark

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Bruce Hansen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 847
From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 02-26-2004 05:04 PM

So, where are they? Where are the cyan track prints? Is there a problem with getting studios and producers to take that big step to be the first major release with a cyan track? Were there some problems with the recent limited release that were not talked about? Are there still too many white exciters out there? What happened to the printer(s) that was (were) modified to do cyan tracks? Was it modified back to "normal", or can it be converted back and forth easily?

I agree with some of the people here who believe that a "test" film should be sent to theaters first. How about a quick film giving the theater information about cyan tracks, and having different types of audio (dialog, music, etc.) on it; something like the Buzz and Bill show that DTS put out. Some test tones would be nice too. To just send out cyan prints to theaters, basically saying we're going to do what we want, and you (the theaters) are just going to have to deal with it, is not a good way to get cooperation from the theaters. If the theaters knew they were ready, they might feel better about possibly receiving a cyan track print, and this could translate to the studios and producers OKing a cyan track release. It seams that this thing has happened behind closed doors, whitout much input from the theaters.

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Brad Allen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 688
From: Evansville, IN, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 02-26-2004 05:57 PM

Sorta smells to me like the big push some years ago about the revolutionary shipping methods Warners Bro's was going to change to. Prints already put together, you guys all need to run out and order this $100 flange to handle it. It's coming, it's coming. Yeah right where is it? I spent the $100.00 and never seen the first lousy print to use it.
Think I can back charge Warner Bro's for the wasted cash? [Wink]

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 02-26-2004 07:28 PM

By all accounts, the Dreamworks release of the Woody Allen picture "Anything Else" with cyan dye analog tracks on all the release prints went very well.

The issue right now is what to do about countries that receive prints recycled from the US and Canada. Some less developed countries may have a low percentage of theatres equipped with red LED readers, and silver+dye tracks will still be needed for them during the transition to cyan dye only.

The Cyan Dye Track committee has held many open meetings at ShoWest, ShowEast and the ITEA projection seminar, and exhibitors have attended. NATO has been very active in communicating its support via articles in "In Focus" and "NATO On-Line".

http://www.dyetracks.org

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Ted Costas
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 119
From: Hollywood, CA, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 03-03-2004 03:05 PM

Please do not compare the Cyan efforts to that of ELR's (Extended Length Reels). Just because it is a change that must be accepted by both Exhibition and Distribution, on a company by company basis, so as not to pose a conflict of interest, doesn't mean they are equal, by any means.

The move to cyan benefits the enviornment. It is a lateral move for analog sound quality, and a upwards move for image quiality. Without the application process, by Dolby's statistics, 11% of all reels checked for quality in the past year had been downgraded or rejected for application splash. Also, the digital tracks are not affected what-so-ever.

ELRs failed because they posed more negative issues related to shipping and quality than their one perceived benefit: a splice/change-over every 6000 feet instead of every 2000.

Cyan is happenning. ELRs ain't.

Warren S. said, "The distinct difference with cyan tracks is that the cost is not carried by the processing and manufacturing industry but being passed on to a sector which gains no advantage."

Who doesn't gain from a better looking print and enviornmental improvements...? Yes, exhibition does benefit here. Without water, we'd have no popcorn. But seriously. In the case of Cyan for analog tracks, the pros far outweigh the cons. I won't repeat them out of respect for John P..

Now let's talk money. By the way, that is my middle name... No, actually, the whole money thread is kind of funny. So if Brad Pitt takes less than his usual millions for his next picture, the studios should pass that savings on to the exhibitor. The way I look at it, all those variables are up to those negotiating the deals in the first place. To say that the lab will save $X by printing cyan analog tracks, and that they should pass the savings on to the Studio, who in turn should pass the savings on to the Exhibitor, who should pass it on to the patron... heck, with cyan and D-Cinema's cost savings, movies will be for free. If we wanted to make this effort a money issue, we would be pushing for cyan digital tracks as well. The lab could really save money there, but there is no environmental benefit to doing that, or quality benefit either. So that, being strictly a money issue, will be left to those that negotiate those deals. So unless exhibition can get Brad Pitt to start "giving back," let's just be happy we're saving some water and making the movie going experience a little bit better.

GET ME BRAD PITT ON THE PHONE!

Yours, Ted

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Bruce Hansen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 847
From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 03-03-2004 04:50 PM

Ted, how would cyan digital tracks save money? I was under the impression that they are just color dyes, which are there on the film anyway. Isn't SDDS cyan now?

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Dominic Case
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 131
From: Sydney NSW Australia
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 03-03-2004 05:15 PM

quote:
Ted, how would cyan digital tracks save money? I was under the impression that they are just color dyes, which are there on the film anyway. Isn't SDDS cyan now?

Correct. Both SDDS and SRD tracks work by visible light, using receptors that are not sensitive to infra-red. Silver redevelopment of analogue soundtracks started with Eastmancolor prints in the 1950s, effectively to retain compatibility with projectors that worked with black and white prints and with Technicolor dye transfer prints. Digital sound systems had no need for this backward compatibility (except the ill-fated CDS system [Roll Eyes]

) so they've worked with dyes all along.

I'm just amazed that after about 5 years of this project (that I can remember, it may have been more) we still have fears about theatres "just being sent a cyan print", about "behind closed doors" and worries about what might happen in the deep dark recesses of "less-developed" countries (shouldn't that be "more re-developed" countries, John? [Smile]

).

The issue now isn't so much that a few theatres still have to go out and upgrade their equipment, it's that most theatres already have done so, and are waiting to see why they had to do it.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 03-03-2004 05:49 PM

Color prints have an 11% defect rate?!?! Wow! Is there any other industry that has a defect rate that is even close to that? This has certainly been an educational thread. Many thanks to John, Dominic, and Ted for participating. I wish we had someone from Technicolor Hollywood and/or Deluxe Hollywood to comment here, too.

In any case it will be interesting to see when and how (or if) the dye-track "changeover" happens. Of the theatres where I work most often, one will not need to do anything (they opened in '98 with red LED readers), one will need to convert their SH-1000s, and one will be pretty much screwed unless someone makes a conversion kit for Western Electric Universal Bases (most likely they will end up with a half-assed homebrew conversion that sounds bad). And I still worry about reprints of older titles whose soundtrack negatives were recorded with silver track prints in mind.

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