my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home

» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Cyan Tracks (Page 20)

This topic comprises 42 pages: 1  2  3  ...  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  ...  40  41  42

Author Topic: Cyan Tracks Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 03-04-2004 06:23 PM                        Hey, you are in a positive environment. Otherwise, instead of saying "based on the crap I've seen come from some of the labs", I would have said, "based on the crap I've seen come from Atlab". Which in my limited experience with prints from your lab, isn't the case... they've all been good. You've got to remember that at least 95% of the prints I deal with come from one of Deluxe or Technicolor's labs, and we all know how much we love Deluxe.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-05-2004 08:23 AM                        Okay, let's discuss modern reverse scan red LED analog readers WITHOUT regard to cyan dye tracks. For theatres playing current stereo analog soundtracks (color films with dye+silver, or occasional B&W silver variable area analog tracks), what are the pros and cons of reverse scan red LED readers? These include availability for most soundheads, installation cost, maintenance cost, improved sound quality, etc. Are they a good investment? Do they have a good return on investment? (What is the "payback" period?) Has anyone who has installed reverse scan red LED readers (new or as replacement for tungsten white light) felt the investment was not worth it? Has anyone converted BACK to tungsten white light readers because they were dissatisfied with red LED performance, or the cost of maintaining them? Does anyone deliberately buy and install old tungsten readers for any reason other than initial purchase price (used equipment)? Remember, a significant MAJORITY of theatres in developed countries worldwide are already using red LED readers. There must be good reasons.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 03-06-2004 01:51 AM                    Ah, but everything that is good about reverse scan red light LED readers is even BETTER with reverse scan IR LED readers (the original form of the "modern" reverse scan reader). IR also mitigates the principle disadvantage (that a tech is needed to change the LED's) by lasting longer.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-06-2004 04:38 AM                     John, I never really felt there was a payback time for converting to reverse scam. The payback is instant as the results gained are normally light years ahead(pun intended) of the average old exciter systems I encounter. There is the cost to operate each type based on cost of Exciter lamps, exciter sockets failing and tech expense to properly maintain the old stuff vs. cost of the RED LED over a 5 year period, or longer, and replacing it. The RED LED is cheaper to operate and wins hands down. I am now starting to see RED LEDs that need replacement either from fading of segments failing.... after 7 years... and these were running continously....though after replacement they have all now been converted to go on and off with the projector motor. This ought to extend their life even longer. 7 to 10 years perhaps...... Steve said.... "Ah, but everything that is good about reverse scan red light LED readers is even BETTER with reverse scan IR LED readers" Actually they are only temporarily better as sound tracks will some day turn blue. This is one aspect of reverse scam that you must weigh the cyan factor into. Except for a very few, those enjoying the benefits of IR will eventually need to convert over. IR LEDS also fade over time. They just fade quite a bit bit slower than their visible counterparts do. But then there is the VERY high price tag of the IR array unless you know a tech that has amassed a small collection of them from doing conversions for nervous customers. Mark  |  IP: Logged Sam D. Chavez Film God Posts: 2153 From: Martinez, CA USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 03-06-2004 11:22 AM                       In response to Steve, not all readers require a tech to change the LED. The BACP reader features interchangeable LED/Heatsinks and can be changed by the staff. In fact, either Red or IR LEDs can be used interchangeably with this model. There is a slight difference in Dolby Level and also a very slight difference in the focus point between the Red and IR LED. Also, the IR LEDs are not without fault. The main failure mode is the center segments failing early. This produces gross distortion in the soundtrack and plays hell with the 2 to 4 matrix.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-07-2004 01:05 AM                     The failures with the IR LEDs were almost always heat related...with the current Kelmar, CE or BACP LED mounts, I've yet to have a failure or significant Dolby level drift with IR. As to slight level difference...you would not notice it with your power supply because you starve the LED. The BACP power supply is voltage regulated. An LED is inherently a voltage regulator. If you use a current regulated power supply, the IR LED requires significantly less gain than the visible RED counterpart. The focus difference is enough to warrant an A-chain if one were to switch between the two. As to switching back to exciter lamps, I know of one that has done the experiment with visible, IR and exciters...they went back to exciters for running older optical films as the most pleasing sound. IR was the best sound with a clean track, exciter lamps won when it came to tracks that had abbrasions. The reason people have switched to visible red light sources has to do with threats from the cyan lobby and nothing to do with the exhibitor's quest for quality. As for "payback" time...it is near infinate. If you were to try and attribute increased revenue due to the switch from exciter lamps to reverse scan readers...you might be able to show something for increased analog quality but as for visible red readers...not a chance you could show any improved profits to offset the cost of purchase and installation. As to the cost of the exhibitor for maintaining red readers versus exciters...Mark G and I simply disagree on this one. John, your argument about percentage of the world that have red light readers and the need to cater to them is beyond stupid. Using that logic, when all readers were exciters, we had near 100% uniformity...as such no one should have switched and the the cyan bozos should have been swatted down on the concept alone...then again. With an applicated soundtrack you have 100% capatibility, cyan track will never have that. Cyan tracks are inferior and there is no getting around it. They are a dumb idea proposed to an industry fixated on providing the worst quality performance in everyway possible whilst boasting about their "New Deluxe, Stadium Seating, Curved screen theatres" that have out of frame out of focus scratched up shakey messes. Steve  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 03-07-2004 10:38 AM                    Obviously at this end the water and waste savings are merely something we are told about; it's all hypothetical to us and countered by the thought that there is a half century's worth of experience behind the current system. Maybe if it was a sideways move in sound quality there would be less argument over the other negatives. But this is negative negative negative with the only positive being the elimination of something that can't have been too terrible if it's worked on millions of reels of film around the world since the early 50's.  |  IP: Logged Sam D. Chavez Film God Posts: 2153 From: Martinez, CA USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 03-07-2004 11:19 AM                       I enjoy Steve's emotional response to most matters and I hesitae in posting on this topic as I have some reticence to touching the third rail which in this case is Guttag. We do not "starve" the LED. We use voltage regulation instead of current regulation. There are advantages to both. Current control offers more uniform output in changing ambient temperature and thus, less drift in Dolby level. We chose to use a temperature sensing circuit to compensate for a drift in LED current to accomplish the same end.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-07-2004 11:28 AM                     Ohhhhhhhh noooooooo.....Everybody run and hide........  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-07-2004 08:33 PM                     Sam, Don't read my post wrong. I'm not critiquing your supply as a suitable source...only when comparing how it powers an IR LED versus a red LED...the IR will be current starved in comparsion. Given the same current, the IR sysem will have a significant increase in level which translates directly to lower noise. If you set up a processor with visible red LEDs on a current regulated supply so that you are right on Dolby-Level...if you put an IR LED in and all else is equal...the IR system should peg the meter or send the meter into the top of scale in digital meters. Again...no need to fear me on this one. Steve  |  IP: Logged Dominic Case Expert Film Handler Posts: 131 From: Sydney NSW Australia Registered: Aug 2003 posted 03-08-2004 12:30 AM                       quote: Obviously at this end the water and waste savings are merely something we are told about; it's all hypothetical to us Why's that, Steve? Don't you live on the same planet as the rest of us?  |  IP: Logged Sam D. Chavez Film God Posts: 2153 From: Martinez, CA USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 03-08-2004 12:39 AM                       Looks like it's Steve on defense. No offense taken Steve, I was just having a little fun, but I do abhor the term current starvation. I get this mental image of those poor little LEDs wasting away, getting more emaciated by the day.  |  IP: Logged Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 03-08-2004 12:41 AM                        Just think how much of the environment you'll save with current starved LEDs and cyan dye tracks.  |  IP: Logged Thomas Procyk Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1842 From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 03-08-2004 01:09 AM                     quote: I would have said, "based on the crap I've seen come from Atlab". All of the Bollywood prints I have handled from Atlab HAVE been crap... color shifts, fogging, focus shifts from reel to reel. And you want to talk about soundtrack problems? How about the soundtrack ending 10-15 frames before the last picture? Or going completely black for a few frames at a lab splice? Detestable... Maybe this is just Atlab in India, but seriously, if I ever got a U.S. release print like that, I'd be on the phone for a replacement in a heartbeat. =TMP= ***EDIT*** As Daryl pointed out, there is no Atlab in India, just Adlabs. My mistake. I'm an idiot. Read on... [ 03-08-2004, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Thomas Procyk ]  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-08-2004 01:31 AM                     I know that you were directing your comment to the other Steve but just what percentage of this planet is water? And short of shooting it off into space, it is here to stay. Steve  |  IP: Logged

All times are Central (GMT -6:00)

This topic comprises 42 pages: 1  2  3  ...  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  ...  40  41  42

Printer-friendly view of this topic

Hop To: Select a Forum: Category: Operations -------------------- Digital Cinema Forum Film Handlers' Forum Large Format Forum Ground Level Feature Info, Trailer Attachments & REAL Credit Offsets Category: Community -------------------- Film-Yak Film Handlers' Movie Reviews The Afterlife Bob Maar's Joke-A-Thon Category: Classified -------------------- Equipment and Supplies Wanted/For Sale Help Wanted/Seeking Employment Category: System -------------------- Software Beta Testing Forum

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.