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Author Topic: Cyan Tracks Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 03-16-2004 08:23 PM                    quote: You can buy the LED at a decent price for replacement purposes from USL Those don't come from Dolby?  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-16-2004 09:03 PM                     The RED LED's all come from Dolby. They are also ALOT less expensive than they were a number of years back. Mark  |  IP: Logged Dominic Case Expert Film Handler Posts: 131 From: Sydney NSW Australia Registered: Aug 2003 posted 03-16-2004 09:03 PM                       quote: Yes, it would be very interesting if an "anti" article were accepted for publication. Most unlikely to happen. The SMPTE Editorial Board is delierately stacked with pro-cyan members (just check it out), who will do their utmost to supress any inconvenient reports. Just thought I'd save the anti-cyan agitators the trouble of posting this thought. However, an objective report on William's survey of red LED penetration, and Steve G's data on sound reproduction quality, would make very valuable information. Of course I would look for proper validation of the data, reference to (and comparison with) earlier findings.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-16-2004 10:51 PM                        Scott Norwood wrote: quote: Personally, I've run lots of older prints (including B&W and dye-transfer) on an LED system and I haven't noticed the sound to be particularly bad. Maybe not ideal, but not noticeably "bad." I've heard far worse from misaligned white-light systems. Sensitivity to a few percent cross-modulation distortion varies with the individual and the program material. Dialog with lots of "spitty" S sounds tends to emphasize the sibilant distortion. The cross-modulation difference between white and red readers with old tracks is discussed in the Goldberg SMPTE paper. As noted, the mix of white light and red LED readers today is currently addressed by the compromise "high magenta" (magenta+silver) track. Ultimately, once there is mostly one type of reader again, all tracks would be optimized for cross-modulation distortion for that reader.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 03-16-2004 11:42 PM                    If the red LEDs all come from Dolby then I have a real problem with the entire world being dependent on one source for a consumable. It does make you question their motivation on cyan. LEDs that need replacing every couple years times how many projectors worldwide times who knows...maybe as much as fifty dollars (markup) each??? How can that not skew ones evaluation of the situation? Because how much importance one places on the touted virtues of cyan and determines whether or not they outweigh the various negatives is always going to be a subjective opinion. For that much money I'd probably be extolling the virtues of waste and water savings, too. I could pat myself on the back at being a great environmentalist and collect a phat reward, too. Sweet!  |  IP: Logged Sam D. Chavez Film God Posts: 2153 From: Martinez, CA USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 03-16-2004 11:49 PM                       I feel obliged to come to Dolby's defense on the issue of pricing of the LEDs. The markup is actually almost non-existent and not at all typical of Dolby's usual markup on finished goods. How do I know? I priced them myself when I was still there. It is in fact an array that has no other application except for soundtrack readers, hence the small numbers and the seemingly high price. SDDS did not wish to commission such an array and instead went with a ring of low cost LEDs in order to decollimate the light. It was one of a number of mistakes that led to their demise. The reason off the shelf LED's cost pennies is they are made in the multiple millions and they throw out the bad ones. I'm with Pytlak on this issue. Get a grip. Everything is not a conspiracy.  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 03-17-2004 03:32 AM                        I think we can take Sam`s word on the pricing. The whole issue for me doesn`t have much more value than the useless Dolby Digital vs. DTS discussion. Fact is, whatever sounds "best" to some ears, red LED readers sound very decent when aligned properly. Also, there is a big advantage you have with LED readers over conventional exciter bulb based systems. That is stability and reliability. I have so much trouble and pain with those exciter systems we still have! We have lost so many shows because the bulb decided to quit in the middle of a show or the filament sags and the sound drastically drops in quality because of uneven illumination. LED readers very rarely quit completely, and the level drop is rather gradual and can easily be adjusted by the projectionist after 5 minutes maximum of training. I also have to admit I rather like the readers Sam manufactures, I found them to be practical and effective to install and align, and I absolutely love the slide-out circuit board feature. So far, none of them has failed on us, but every piece of equipment is allowed to fail once in a while and then we will be able to save the show by taking the board from one of the other screens which has digital sound.  |  IP: Logged Richard Fowler Film God Posts: 2392 From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2001 posted 03-17-2004 05:11 AM                     To Dolby's credit during the initial years of LED failure their field represenatives where requesting failed units so they could be studied under microscopic inspection to find reasons for the failures. Parameters such as amount of power being used was also researched. If you are dead set against the use of LED there is always Laser, Jaxlite, Halogen with precision red filter  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 03-17-2004 08:12 AM                    I don't think it's that unreasonable to wish for competitive suppliers. If one is labeled a conspiracy nut for not wanting there to be only a single source for an item, whether automobiles, toilet paper, operating systems, or red LED arrays, then label me a conspiracy nut. I'm glad if the profit motive is less than it might seem to be. I'd still be happier with a 2nd source.  |  IP: Logged Jim Spohn Film Handler Posts: 95 From: Bakersfield, CA, USA Registered: Jan 2003 posted 03-17-2004 09:24 AM                     It seems to me IMHO that the industry, before fiddling with the only really reliable system of reading sound from film, should perfect digital to the point where operators never have to worry about the digital dropping out. It just seems crazy to screw with the back-up system before finishing the development of the primary system. Just my thoughts.... Jim  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-17-2004 09:45 AM                     Jim how are they screwing with it Had many emergancy calls for realignment due to a knock or brocken solar cell or excitor lamp failing never had an emergancy call related to a reverse scan reader  |  IP: Logged Sam D. Chavez Film God Posts: 2153 From: Martinez, CA USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 03-17-2004 10:27 AM                       No offense intended to Steve. Regarding second source LED arrays, there is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from developing LED arrays except for simple economics. There is no application at present other than ours. It is not a trivial task to develop a reliable array. (Dolby's version is somewhat less than ideal as we all know). One has to pay for the R and D and the tooling to make them. Then you have to convince Toshiba or some other vendor to manufacture them at some reasonable price for relatively small quantities. I would guess that perhaps 200,000 Red LED arrays have been made and sold to date. This is chump change to an electronics manufacturer. If there were a market for these in medical or other application, the price would drop dramatically.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-17-2004 10:32 AM                        How many companies manufacture exciter lamps? There are at least 2-3, with GE being the most common.  |  IP: Logged Clint Koch Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1435 From: San Luis Obispo, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 03-17-2004 12:00 PM                     Mark said... The RED LED's all come from Dolby. Not true. USL does have LED's manufactured for the Jaxlight as well as replacements for existing reverse scan units. Part number is RLD-10. The BACP readers we manufacture do have LED's from Dolby yet when they fail we can supply replacements that we have manufactured at a fair price. Clint  |  IP: Logged Richard Fowler Film God Posts: 2392 From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2001 posted 03-17-2004 12:34 PM                     Steve, you can uncross your arms now.... Physically they look the same and appear to work just as well.  |  IP: Logged

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