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Author
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Topic: Cyan Tracks
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William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 04-08-2004 04:43 AM
quote:
The October 1996 SMPTE paper was where the advantages of a cyan dye track enabled by red LED readers were first publicly presented to engineers for peer review and discussion. But it wasn't until late 1998 that theatre owners were directly encouraged to convert.
Were the manufacturers contacted first, to push the red readers & assure the red reader base was increased? All the LED's COME from Dolby.
USL's Jaxlight patent is February 4, 1997. How long did R&D take before that? It specifically mentions dye tracks, & specifically is to read cyan.
http://www.uspto.gov/
Patent # 5,600,206
February 4, 1997
"Solid state sound lamp
Abstract
The present invention is a sound light assembly for reading encoded information on a film utilizing cyan, magenta and yellow color dyes rather than silver emulsion, that may be used with existing projection equipment. "
[...]
"Now, with the ever increasing public concern for the environment, film manufacturers are being pressured to omit the silver emulsion processing altogether and leave only the color dye processing on all 35mm prints. "
[...]
"Thus, a sound light source is needed to read soundtracks on color dye films which omit the silver emulsion processing."
[...]
"Specifically, LED light sources can emit high levels of narrow spectral energy with very little infrared energy. Thus, if an LED process is selected that has a peak energy that coincides with the maximum density of a particular dye layer, an efficient, high quality system can be realized. Tests have shown that the a 660 nm GaAlAs ultrabright red coincides perfectly with the cyan dye density curves. (See curves in FIG. 1.) The cyan color dye layer has the best resolution on color dye film. "
[...]
"The present invention comprises a sound light source 10 that produces narrow spectrum high intensity illumination with very little infrared energy. Thus, the sound light source 10 has a peak energy that coincides with the maximum density of a color dye layer to create an efficient, high quality system. Tests have shown that a 660 nm GaAlAs ultrabright red coincides perfectly with the cyan dye density curves. (See curves in FIG. 1.) In the preferred embodiment, the light source 10 peak energy coincides with the cyan color dye layer for the best modulation effect. "
[...]
"In the present invention, the LED die array will illuminate analog modulation on the color dye layers. Utilizing narrow spectrum LED's, the modulation effect will occur only by the cyan layer with minimal effect by the other dye layers. If the exposure on the other dye layers is off in any manner or if the other dye layers are not used, it will not effect the overall clarity of the analog sound. "
Before any more bandwidth is wasted, it does point out the obvious "The same technique can be used with other dye layers provided the spectral peak coincides with the layer used such that multiple information on different dye layers can be simultaneously decoded.", but specifically is directed to cyan.
Where was the "pressure" mentioned coming from? How did it get to USL? Why cyan?
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John Pytlak
Film God
Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 04-08-2004 07:57 AM
Your questions are answered by the UltraStereo Labs Patent and by previous discussion.
Although the magenta layer in print film is the sharpest, being the topmost imaging layer, it is most subject to damage from any abrasion. In sound readers, green LEDs did not have the quantum efficiency of the red LEDs.
The cyan layer in print film is nearly as sharp and low grained as the magenta layer, and is in the middle of the emulsion pack, and so is less likely to suffer abrasion damage. High-output red LEDs are efficient, and have considerable research and experience behind them from applications like vehicle tailights and signal lights.
The yellow layer in print film is very fast, and therefore quite grainy. Being at the bottom of the emulsion pack, it is the least sharp. Even in conventional (magenta+cyan+silver) analog tracks, it was not used.
Infrared LEDs have good quantum efficiency in sound reader applications, but require silver in the soundtrack to modulate the infrared energy which dyes are relatively transparent to. Both IR and red LED readers were available, and the industry showed a clear preference for red LEDs well before cyan dye tracks were actively promoted to theatre owners beginning in late 1998. As Goldberg surmises, it may have been the "compelling appearance", and the mundane reason of being able to SEE the light from the reader. And in looking to the future, the many environmental advantages certainly played a role. So today, the vast majority of analog sound readers in modern theatres are red LED. And they play a wide variety of soundtracks, including B&W silver, conventional (cyan+magenta+silver), high magenta (magenta+silver) and pure cyan dye.
Here's some information about Hydroquinone:
http://www.inchem.org/documents/hsg/hsg/hsg101.htm
quote:
Because of its physical and chemical properties, hydroquinone will be
distributed mainly to the water compartment when released into the
environment. It is, in general, highly toxic for organisms in the
environment, though the sensitivity of different species within the
same taxonomic group varies greatly.
quote:
Hydroquinone was evaluated by a Nordic Expert Group for Documentation
of Occupational Exposure Limits in 1989. It was recommended that its
genotoxic effects should be given attention and also its possible
effects on the immune system, bone marrow, skin, and mucous membranes.
quote:
The United Nations Committee of Experts on the Transport of Dangerous
Goods classifies hydroquinone as a toxic substance (Hazard Class 6.1)
Here is the formula for soundtrack developer:
quote:
Sound Track Developer Specifications
Sound Track Developer (SD-43b)
Water 10-16°C (50-60°F)* 800 mL
* Start with mix water in the recommended temperature range to achieve a heated solution 32-38°C (90-100°F) after the sodium hydroxide has been dissolved. A starting water temperature higher than recommended may be hazardous, as the temperature can rise after addition of sodium hydroxide to a point where water vapor containing sodium hydroxide is given off.
Sound Coating Aid (Natrosol 250HR)† 2.0 g
† Natrosol is a trademark for hydroxyethylcellulose. Natrosol 250HR is manufactured by Hercules, Inc., Coating and Specialty Products Department, Hercules Plaza, Wilmington DE 19894. Sift slowly into solution with good continuous agitation, taking care not to aerate the solution. A homogenous mixture should be obtained in 45 to 60 minutes.
Sodium Hydroxide 80 g
Hexylene Glycol 2.0 mL
Sodium Sulfite (Anhydrous) 50 g‡
‡ Before adding hydroquinone, cool the solution to room temperature.
Hydroquinone 60 g
Ethylenediamine (98% by Weight) 13 mL
Water to make 1 Liter §
§ If occasional removal of silver from the picture area is needed because of improperly coated sound track developer, add 4 g/L potassium iodide to this formula prior to reprocessing.
WARNING! Causes eye burns, skin irritation, and allergic skin reaction. Avoid contact with eyes, skin and clothing. In case of
contact, immediately flush eyes or skin with plenty of water for at least 15 minutes. In case of eye contact, get medical attention.
(I added the formula an hour after the original posting)
[ 04-08-2004, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: John Pytlak ]
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William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 04-09-2004 04:01 AM
I'm considered a very easy-going guy, but I am getting cranked by the re-direction from specific technical matters to simply a restatement of the generality which brings them up, & by re-direction to personal matters from technical issues.
Just to be open about these irritants:
quote:
The Dye Track Committee was formed in 1998. All segments of the industry were represented. Meetings were open and attended by both those who favored conversion, and those who argued against it. Weighing ALL factors, an industry consensus developed, favoring red LED readers. You have only yourself to blame if you feel you were not part of the process:
Steve Guttag was present & raised questions at least once at a dye tracks meeting:
http://www.dyetracks.org/reports/minutes/2001/DyeTrack.meeting.min.1101.html
quote:
Dye Track ShowEast Meeting - 11/1/01
Present:
Ioan Allen IA@dolby.com
Pat Moore PMoore1st@aol.com
Neal Rockman Nrockman@CardinalSound.com
Steven Guttag sguttag@aol.com
Jack Cashin jack@uslinc.com
Dave Dawson dave_dawson@mpaa.org
Jack Teahan Kodak
Colin Davis cfjdavis@kodak.com
Regardless, it is plain that detrimental issues raised which could not be absorbed into the agenda were simply disregarded &/or not pursued to a functional resolution, not the least the silver track/red reader problem:
http://www.dyetracks.org/reports/minutes/2000/TechnicolorFilmService.meeting.min.1000.html
quote:
MINUTES OF A MEETING TO DISCUSS THE INTRODUCTION OF CYAN DYE ANALOGUE SOUNDTRACKS 26 October 2000
As at the first meeting, concerns were raised regarding the 'playability' on red readers of black and white silver (rather than B&W on color stock) prints. Although mainly affecting archive material, every few years a subject is released on B&W stock for artistic purposes. Andrew Wales will come up with a list of possible combinations of print and reader type and with the help of Dave Allen and Mel Ryder come up with a set of printing specification.
To say the least, it's plain that inside an organization with a specific agenda, holding a different opinion just wastes everybody's time on both sides.
Second, these switches from the issues to bait Steve Guttag that he should conduct critical measurement & comparison studies dating back to
quote:
Instead of griping about all this why not make some real world S/N and distortion measurements of white light, red and IR LED's
Excuse me, but shouldn't that have been required of the Dye Track Committee? Or, since it could easily be expected that such would be biased, SMPTE should have done this as an examination of comparsion to & impact on the state of the art in the industry when they climbed on. Exactly how eroded does a mission become before it's a rubber stamp?
-------------------
John, here's one of my problems with getting from general to specific but just getting the general re-stated again.
Why, suddenly, is it so neccessary to evade that high-magenta was developed to support the red readers?
General:
High-magenta was developed to support a "mix of readers".
1. The "mix of readers" is tungsten/IR & red.
2. The existing track configuration suits tungsten/IR readers with known fidelity characteristics.
3. The red readers will reproduce existing redeveloped soundtracks with lower quality than would IR/tungsten readers.
4. High-magenta was developed to mitigate the lower-quality of reproduction on red readers while IR/tungsten readers were still in use.
Which one of those statements is wrong?
Please please oh please just those issues, not a copy & paste of the HAZMAT data for lab chemicals. I'm not asking about that right now, the question is not about that, it's about those process & measurement issues above.
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John Pytlak
Film God
Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 04-09-2004 06:24 AM
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Instead of griping about all this why not make some real world S/N and distortion measurements of white light, red and IR LED's
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excuse me, but shouldn't that have been required of the Dye Track Committee?
The two SMPTE papers published the measurements:
http://www.dolby.com/tech/ci.os.0012.reddye.html
The dispute seems to be with the conclusions and interpretation of the data, not the data itself. No one (including Mr. Guttag) has presented or published a paper refuting the data.
quote:
Steve Guttag was present & raised questions at least once at a dye tracks meeting...
Yes, Steve has attended some meetings. The meetings are open, as I said, and he is on the distribution list for notices. Yet he has often remained silent, despite his strong feelings. He did not attend last month's meeting at ShoWest, even though I reminded him of it at the Film-Tech party the night before.
quote:
1. The "mix of readers" is tungsten/IR & red.
2. The existing track configuration (silver+dye XM optimized for tungsten) suits tungsten/IR readers with known fidelity characteristics.
3. The red readers will reproduce existing redeveloped soundtracks with lower quality than would IR/tungsten readers.
4. High-magenta was developed to mitigate the lower-quality of reproduction on red readers while IR/tungsten readers were still in use.
Which one of those statements is wrong?
Those statements are correct. The fact is, there is a MIX of readers today, with the vast majority being red LED. How would you deal with it?
Steve wrote:
quote:
The switch from IR to visible had nothing to do with a consumer or industry choice...merely that Dolby was now supplying visible red LEDs now.
Any reader manufacturer was free to source IR LEDs elsewhere. Kinoton's red reader with a dichroic filter, Raytheon, Ernemann, and ACL's laser unit use different technologies. Using red LEDs from Dolby is convenient, but they are not the only way to build a reader.
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John Pytlak
Film God
Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 04-19-2004 11:33 AM
Here is the latest information posted on the Dye Tracks website:
http://www.dyetracks.org/article_DisneyMGM_0404.html
quote:
Disney, MGM Commit to Cyan Analog Soundtracks
At ShoWest 2004 in Las Vegas in March, Disney and MGM announced significant commitments to using environmentally friendly pure-dye cyan analog soundtracks in lieu of traditional silver-applicated tracks on their 35 mm release prints.
This fall, beginning with Mr. 3000, Buena Vista Pictures Distribution will start issuing Disney and Touchstone 35 mm releases with pure-dye cyan soundtracks, and plans to switch entirely to cyan on all prints worldwide by January 2005. In the meantime, MGM becomes the first studio to use cyan soundtracks on 100% of its U.S. releases, beginning with Soul Plane in May of this year.
Environmental benefits of the cyan soundtrack include the elimination of caustic chemicals, and silver itself, from the print manufacturing process, plus a significant reduction in water usage. The technology has been thoroughly and successfully tested by labs, film distributors, and exhibitors over the past four years. The widespread use of red-light soundtrack readers in cinemas now makes it practical to issue all 35 mm prints with cyan tracks in many markets, such as the U.S., where it is estimated that the vast majority of screens are now equipped. Digital soundtracks are not affected by the change.
http://www.dyetracks.org/press/pr_Disney_0304.html
quote:
Announces Switch to Environmentally Friendly
Pure-Dye Cyan Soundtracks on Worldwide Film Release Prints
Starting This Fall Buena Vista Partners With Kodak, Dolby
and NATO to Eliminate Silver Soundtracks
BURBANK, Calif., March 22, 2004, PR Newswire—Starting this fall, Buena Vista Pictures Distribution will begin issuing 35mm prints of Walt Disney Pictures and Touchstone Pictures releases with environmentally friendly pure-dye cyan soundtracks, it was announced today (3/22/04) by Chuck Viane, president of Buena Vista Pictures Distribution, and Jeff Miller, executive vice president, Worldwide Post Production and Operations for The Walt Disney Studios. This new soundtrack technology represents a significant environmental advance for the motion pictures industry, and eliminates the use of traditional silver- applicated tracks and the caustic chemicals involved in that process. Buena Vista plans to switch entirely to cyan soundtracks on all of its worldwide release prints by January, 2005.
To accomplish this goal, the Disney distribution arm is working closely with Dolby, Kodak, Technicolor and NATO to perfect the technology and encourage theater owners to install RED LED soundtrack readers on their projectors. RED LED readers, which are now standard in all US manufactured projectors, are currently installed in the vast majority of projectors in use in this country. MGM has also announced that they will be issuing pure-dye cyan soundtracks on all release prints beginning this May. (Photo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20040322/LAM133)
Commenting on the announcement, Viane said, "Our industry is striving to eliminate sources of environmental harm, improve lab productivity and theatrical efficiency, and Buena Vista is proud to be taking a cutting edge position in this worthy effort. Most theater projectors are now equipped with the RED LED readers and we expect the others to convert to this technology by 2005. I'm sure that other distributors will soon be supporting this movement to cyan soundtracks and that together we can all do our part to make this a cleaner planet."
Jeff Miller added, "Dolby, Kodak, Technicolor, NATO, and our Studio have been working hard to perfect the new cyan soundtrack technology so that audiences will enjoy the sound reproduction for analog tracks on RED LED readers as the filmmakers intended. Buena Vista will release one of its major fall titles with this type of soundtrack as we move forward with our plans for complete conversion by January, 2005. This is a major advance for our industry and something we can all be very proud of."
John Fithian, president of the National Association of Theatre Owners, said, "NATO congratulates our friends at Disney for taking this important step. It's wonderful to see America's movie theatres and movie studios work together to improve our environment."
In addition to eliminating silver and all of the associated caustic chemicals used in the old process, the new cyan soundtrack technology provides enormous benefits in terms of water conservation. Given that a typical movie release may require between 5,000 to 10,000 prints, it is estimated that this new approach to film production can conserve enough water to supply a town of 75,000 people with drinking water each year.
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John Hawkinson
Film God
Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 04-19-2004 01:12 PM
John P. notes, "Each Tuesday, the Hollywood Reporter has a domestic boxoffice report that give the reported number of US theatres with prints, and several thousand prints are typical of major releases. On April 6, the Hollywood Reporter said Disney's "Home on the Range" had 3,047 prints domestically."
A more convenient source of the same information is boxofficemojo.com, which is free, unlike Hollywood Reporter.
But neither source has good information on the number of prints; they both report the number of theatres, and it's not very easy to tell what the ratio of prints/theatres is in any sort of reliable way.
In terms of direct personal experience, the highest print numbers we've seen over here recently were in the mid-6000s for Matrix: Revolutions, mid-4000s for Something's Gotta Give, and high-4000s for Big Fish. (For whatever reason, we had lower print numbers for some more popular blockbuster titles.)
Those films are had peak theatre counts of 3502, 2876, and 2514, respectively. That conservatively suggests a theatre:print ratio of somewhere between 1.5-1.9 (minimum) for major titles. The widest release for 2003 and 2004 both was Return of the King in 3703 theatres, and it was 3876 for Spiderman in 2002.
One might expect the theatre:print ratio to follow a similar formula for within each studio, so it might be interesting to know the peak observed print number for major titles by studio. The above are one major WB title and two medium-range Sony titles (if anyone really cares to try to contribute to this discussion, lets start a new thread).
--jhawk
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