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Author
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Topic: Cyan Tracks
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William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 04-02-2004 07:29 AM
quote:
While we are at it, why not return to black and white? The mind fills in the color anyway. I'd like milk bottles on my porch in the morning as well.
My point of course is that there is no going back. Life, technology and commerce keep moving forward whether we are ready or not.
Black & white films aren't in any way similar. Color films & black & white played on the same equipment, with no degradation to either. Color even showed up in the silents era, color got better without making earlier prints inferior in reproduction.
Also, in the minutes of one of the Cyan Track Committe's meetings, the issue was raised of what happens when a choice is made to release a film in B&W 'for artistic purposes'. They'll still be silver soundtracks. There may still be more B&W movies, the last I can think of is "Schindler's List". That choice was not precluded by a change in the booth.
This is not "a change" that's just "time moving on". Those who only watch or run current release only couldn't care, of course. JP mentioned one of the ideas driving it was to keep film viable as a 'release medium', but only current release. Rep titles, theaters, & programming would be more appropriately served with video, in the case of this soundtrack change. If cyan hadn't been introduced, current release theaters *still* wouldn't have been affected, except that their analog soundtracks would still sound better than cyan.
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 04-02-2004 12:20 PM
On the nitrate issue, I guess I must be one of the youngest people ever to have projected the stuff before a paying audience (I was born in June 1973, 23 years and 4 months after Eastman Kodak announced the end of production). My purely subjective memory from the year and a half I worked at a theatre that was licensed to show it was that b/w nitrate prints invariably looked stunning, but that the colour IB ones were almost all a misregistered disappointment. So my gut instinct is to go with the silver content theory.
A couple of weeks ago I was chatting with the National Film and Television Archive's main access officer. When the topic of conversation turned to nitrate, she commented that 'we must try and get it on the screen a bit more', noting that due to a happy accident (the NFTVA having an ideal nitrate store on a disused air base, where storage capacity isn't a problem, hence nitrate elements have continued to be kept even after preservation dupes were made), we do have a wide range of nitrate viewing copies in very good condition. Recent research suggests that stored under ideal temperature and humidity conditions, the useful life of a nitrate element is measured in centuries rather than decades. Good atmospheric conditions reduces the pace of nitrate decomposition to a crawl.
So it would be great if we could establish a small network of cinemas which could be equipped with all the necessary safety kit and their projectionists thoroughly trained in nitrate handling and projection, and actually provide audiences with a chance to see how wonderful this stuff can look. And, compared to what the British taxpayer is currently spending on soon-to-be-obsolete digital projection, the cost would be negligable.
Sam: yes, some b/w features are printed on colour stock, especially the few that generate mass print runs. The print of The Man Who Wasn't There I saw was particularly horrible to watch, because the hue seemed to change with each reel change. Thankfully, archives and small re-release print runs are still using genuine b/w print stock.
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John Pytlak
Film God
Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 04-02-2004 12:40 PM
As far as I can find in my files, the ads and articles about red LED readers published in Boxoffice, Film Journal, etc. in 1996 and 1997 did not "sell" red readers based on any proposed conversion to cyan dye track. The Joseph Hull article (Film Journal, August 1998) is the first that really promoted the idea of cyan dye tracks directly to theatre owners, and by that time, he reported 28,000 red LED installations worldwide:
http://www.film-tech.com/manuals/DOLBYSCANREV.pdf
Jack Cashin of USL published an article about conversion to cyan dye tracks in October 1998. I believe the first presentation about cyan dye tracks directly to theatre owners was at ShowEast in October 1998.
So it appears that thousands of red LED readers were installed prior to late 1998 without any "push" from cyan dye track conversion.
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Kodak's current B&W print film can achieve densities above 4.0 (10,000:1):
Kodak Black-and-White Print Film 2302
http://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat/en/motion/products/curves/so302Char.pdf
(BTW, Kodak T-Grain technology is not used in print films).
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Stephen Furley
Film God
Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002
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posted 04-02-2004 01:44 PM
Wasn't cellulose nitrate the preferred material for coating lacquer recording disks long after it stopped being used for film?
I would certainly like to see somebody shoot a film on 65mm black and white stock. The nearest I have seen to that is a 35mm anamorphic reduction print of 'The Big Trail'
Nitrate film is a hazardous material. There are many other hazardous materials; if suitable precautions are taken they can be handled with reasonable safety. I have known people who have come close to a state of panic when shown a small quantity of nitrate film. Some of these same people drive cars, with tens of litres of petrol in the tank behind them, and think nothing of it. They drive along a motorway behind a tanker carrying thiusands of litres of the stuff. I suppose people are more worried about unfamiar materials; most people today have probably never handled, or even seen nitrate film. I know for certain that I would rather be in a room where someone had dropped a reel of nitrate film than a room where someone had spilled a litre of petrol.
There's a lot of nonsense talked about nitrate film; I have been told that it will explode if you rewind it and, at the other extreme, that it's perfectly safe and reasonable to keep tens of reels of the stuff at home.
Leo, a few years ago I was speaking to Charles Beddow at the Projected Picture Trust section at Bletchley Park, there were various odd reels of film there, used for demonstration purposes, one of them was an old print from the documentary section of MOMI. I noticed that this was printed on colour stock, and Charles replied that it had to be done that way as the continuous loop platters used at MOMI had problems running black and white stock. Do you know why? It didn't look good, and the difference in the sections of 'Schlindler's List' which were black and white, but printed on colour stock due to the girl in the red coat, was vast. A few years ago 8mm black and white prints started being made on colour stock, as black and white was no longer available. I hope black and white 35 mm stocks, negative, duplicating and print, continue to be available, and used.
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 04-02-2004 03:11 PM
quote:
I would certainly like to see somebody shoot a film on 65mm black and white stock. The nearest I have seen to that is a 35mm anamorphic reduction print of 'The Big Trail'
Same here: we showed it regularly at MOMI as part of the 'BFI 360 classic films' season which David Meeker instigated. The contrast and definition knocked the socks off any other 35 'scope print I saw or showed in that cinema.
quote:
Leo, a few years ago I was speaking to Charles Beddow at the Projected Picture Trust section at Bletchley Park, there were various odd reels of film there, used for demonstration purposes, one of them was an old print from the documentary section of MOMI. I noticed that this was printed on colour stock, and Charles replied that it had to be done that way as the continuous loop platters used at MOMI had problems running black and white stock. Do you know why?
Not exactly, but those endless loop platters really were evil personified. The prints lasted 3-4 months between needing to be replaced outright, so severe were the scratches which the perimeter retaining rollers on the platter inflicted. From the documentary exhibit and if my memory serves me correctly, the clip from The Plow that Broke the Plain had a uniquely nasty green hue to it. But unless my memory is really going downhill, the 'special effects' exhibit had clips from Things to Come and Aelita, Queen of Mars, both on genuine b/w stock and using the same model of endless loop platter. I'll have to ask Stephen Herbert about this the next time I see him.
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