Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Cyan Tracks (Page 33)

 
This topic comprises 42 pages: 1  2  3  ...  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  ...  40  41  42 
 
Author Topic: Cyan Tracks
Daryl C. W. O'Shea
Film God

Posts: 3977
From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from)
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 04-02-2004 05:27 PM      Profile for Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Author's Homepage   Email Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Today's Black and white films are often released on color stck, no?
Often, but not always. Kill Bill Vol. 2 uses B&W silver image film for the first 9 minutes if I'm not mistaken.

 |  IP: Logged

Thomas Procyk
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1842
From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 04-04-2004 12:25 PM      Profile for Thomas Procyk   Email Thomas Procyk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Good! I peeked into Kill Bill (vol 1) yesterday during a black and white scene, not as sharp as it could have been but the worst was yet to come... CRAP CODE!! Big, red and brown ugly dots dancing all over the black and white scene!! [Mad]

Let's see them try and print CRAP CODE on B&W stock! [Razz]

=TMP=

 |  IP: Logged

Jeffry L. Johnson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 809
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 04-04-2004 01:51 PM      Profile for Jeffry L. Johnson   Author's Homepage   Email Jeffry L. Johnson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
JTS 2004 Preliminary Program

Understanding High-Magenta, Cyan-Dye and Red LED Readers - Implications and

Strategies for Optical Soundtracks
Panel Presentation Coordinated by Robert Heiber

President, Chace Productions

The biggest change in optical soundtrack technology since the introduction of the digital optical sound formats in the early 1990s is currently underway. These changes - high-magenta and cyan dye optical soundtracks and red LED (light emitting diode) readers - have a significant impact on asset managers, archives, restoration professionals and repertory exhibition. This presentation will explain how these changes in optical soundtrack technology affect not only the sound elements in storage but also the creation of new soundtracks for the future. The background surrounding this change and the current status of this transition will be discussed. Audio examples will demonstrate problems that may be encountered and the panel will present strategies for dealing with the issues that range from exhibiting legacy material on red LED readers to using tracks manufactured prior to this change for new prints. Guidelines will be distributed to attendees.

Panel Speakers:

Dr. Alan Masson, Eastman Kodak Co

Douglas Greenfield, Dolby Laboratories

 |  IP: Logged

Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 04-04-2004 01:58 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That looks like a great programme; wish I could go. Ah well, roll on AMIA 2004...

 |  IP: Logged

Jack Ondracek
Film God

Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002


 - posted 04-04-2004 11:11 PM      Profile for Jack Ondracek   Author's Homepage   Email Jack Ondracek   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The current boxoffice smash classic hit, The Lost Skeleton Of Cadavra is "black and white", but is pretty obviously color stock

 |  IP: Logged

William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-05-2004 12:25 AM      Profile for William Hooper   Author's Homepage   Email William Hooper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
As far as I can find in my files, the ads and articles about red LED readers published in Boxoffice, Film Journal, etc. in 1996 and 1997 did not "sell" red readers based on any proposed conversion to cyan dye track. The Joseph Hull article (Film Journal, August 1998) is the first that really promoted the idea of cyan dye tracks directly to theatre owners, and by that time, he reported 28,000 red LED installations worldwide:

http://www.film-tech.com/manuals/DOLBYSCANREV.pdf

Jack Cashin of USL published an article about conversion to cyan dye tracks in October 1998. I believe the first presentation about cyan dye tracks directly to theatre owners was at ShowEast in October 1998.

So it appears that thousands of red LED readers were installed prior to late 1998 without any "push" from cyan dye track conversion.

From
http://www.dyetracks.org/ci.os.0012.reddye.html

quote:
At the 138th SMPTE Technical Conference and World Media Expo held in Los Angeles in October 1996, a paper entitled "Red LED Reproduction of Cyan Stereo Variable Area Dye Tracks," by Paul R. Goldberg (Zoran Corp.), Ioan Allen (Dolby Laboratories), Frank J. Ricotta (Technicolor), and Richard C. Sehlin (Eastman Kodak Co.), was presented. The paper discussed the means by which the motion picture industry could finally eliminate its dependence on analog sound track redevelopment, an additional processing step that reintroduces silver into analog soundtracks printed on color stock. A soundtrack reading mechanism, based on the use of a red light-emitting diode (LED) illumination source, was described. The mechanism allows the reading of a cyan dye track with fidelity essentially equal to that presently obtained from a standard "silver track" reproduced by a conventional soundtrack reader.

So who convinced the manufacturers to switch to red LED readers, & what was the argument? The whole cyan track idea was to get a large installed base of LED readers in place, then switch. "Cyan tracks are coming, new readers will need to be red LED readers". Who came up with the inferior red LED system, and why if it were not simply to switch to cyan tracks?

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-05-2004 05:55 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The October 1996 SMPTE paper was where the advantages of a cyan dye track enabled by red LED readers were first publicly presented to engineers for peer review and discussion. But it wasn't until late 1998 that theatre owners were directly encouraged to convert.

 |  IP: Logged

William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-05-2004 06:53 AM      Profile for William Hooper   Author's Homepage   Email William Hooper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
As far as I can find in my files, the ads and articles about red LED readers published in Boxoffice, Film Journal, etc. in 1996 and 1997 did not "sell" red readers based on any proposed conversion to cyan dye track. The Joseph Hull article (Film Journal, August 1998) is the first that really promoted the idea of cyan dye tracks directly to theatre owners, and by that time, he reported 28,000 red LED installations worldwide:


Then to whom were they sold before 1998, & how were they "sold" since they required high-magenta to support them ?

 |  IP: Logged

Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-05-2004 09:01 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The advantages of using a led compared to a excitor and the advantages of reverse scan for extended high end and for stereo seperation have been well known to many long before the cyan issue
Also one of the disadvantages of the IR led was it red residual print wash as a modulated noise which the red led didn't

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-05-2004 10:15 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
William Hooper wrote:

quote:
Then to whom were they sold before 1998, & how were they "sold" since they required high-magenta to support them ?

They were sold to thousands of theatres that wanted them, usually new installations at the time. In the early days, all conventional prints (cyan+magenta+silver) were XM optimized for either white light or red light, but they were played on both, accepting the sibulance that went with playing the track on the wrong reader. "High Magenta" was developed as a compromise to allow nearly the same XM optimization point on either type of reader, but even today, not all distributors/labs are using "high magenta".

"High Magenta" is not "required" to support a mix of readers, it is recommended. Some still choose to accept some sibulance on the segment of readers for which the tracks are not XM optimized and use conventional (cyan+magenta+silver) tracks for the current mix of readers.

Gordon McLeod wrote:

quote:
Also one of the disadvantages of the IR led was it read residual print wash as a modulated noise which the red led didn't


In other words, when there was some residual silver left in the clear areas of the soundtrack or non-uniformity of the silver developer application, it resulted in audible defects.

Another reason some preferred red LED to IR LEDs was that inexperienced operators could easily SEE that they were on, and SEE the track image for initial alignment. Goldberg referred to this as "compelling appearance".

 |  IP: Logged

William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-06-2004 06:55 AM      Profile for William Hooper   Author's Homepage   Email William Hooper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Why didn't Disney want to go high-magenta?

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-06-2004 08:58 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Why didn't Disney want to go high-magenta?


You'll have to ask Disney. Obviously, they have decided to convert to cyan dye tracks.

http://www.infocusmag.com/.%5C02March%5Ctechnologies.htm

ITEA Projection Seminar, January 2002:

quote:
Disney rep Jeff Miller expressed support for the program, and spoke of previous environmental efforts in which his company had been involved. “As soon as the theatres have converted, Disney will issue 100 percent dye track analog releases,” he said. Miller encouraged NATO and ITEA to maximize efforts in persuading the remaining screens to convert, pointing out that hardware costs could be as little as $500 per screen.

Disney comments in The Hollywood Reporter, Monday, March 22, 2004:

quote:

"Our industry is striving to eliminate sources of environmental harm, improve lab productivity and theatrical efficiency," Buena Vista Distribution president Chuck Viane said. "Buena Vista is proud to be taking a cutting-edge position in this worthy effort."...
Disney's first pure-dye cyan title is "Mr. 3000," scheduled for release worldwide in September. According to Viane, Disney will then switchover to pure-dye cyan for all its titles released worldwide beginning Jan. 1. Disney's release print conversion will be handled by Technicolor.

In the past, labs manufacturing the soundtracks on 35mm release prints around the world have used environmentally unfriendly chemical processes. Environmentalists have charged that the lab procedures waste water, pollute the air, produce manufacturing waste, and introduce an array of caustic chemicals into the environment.

Under the old process, silver was used to create the soundtrack; the new process substitutes pure-dye cyan, which eliminates the use of caustic and toxic soundtrack redeveloper solution and allows for much simpler disposal of used prints.

"We manufacture a billion feet of film a year and the industry all combined (turns out) probably 15 (billion)-20 billion feet," said Jeff Miller, executive vp worldwide postproduction and operations for Walt Disney Studios.


 |  IP: Logged

Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 04-07-2004 04:02 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I can appreciate the fact that the USA has a very high penetration of red exciter/reverse scanners, but that Disney is claiming that they are going to release 100% cyan worldwide gives me pause. I find it hard to believe that those hundreds of thousands of screens in the third world countries have all been converted to play cyan tracks. Now far be it for me to chide any Disney executive, but although $500 might be thought of as a paltry sum to Mr. Miller, it may very well be an unmanageable burden to small neighborhood theatres in Malaysia. Unless Disney is willing to write off the potential revenue from the very large worldwide foreign markets, they'd better damn well plan on a double inventory or loose their overseas cash cow.

And when it comes to money, I'll bet mine on Disney not worrying much about the environmental impact of redeveloped silver tracks in third world countries if it means they can't play their pictures there. Besides, what's a little silver in the water and air....in fact, third world peoples should be grateful that they are being given a free supply of silver and toxic chemicals from their friends with the big ears. [Eek!]

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-07-2004 08:40 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Evidently, Disney feels the January 1, 2005 date for the worldwide conversion is sufficient time for all theatres to have red readers.

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 04-07-2004 08:47 AM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So the applicated track causes air pollution, too? My, we sure were an evil industry for half a century.

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 42 pages: 1  2  3  ...  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  ...  40  41  42 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.