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Author Topic: Cyan Tracks Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-09-2004 06:09 PM                     No cost of application of the viscus developer and fewer reject prints due to misaplication and splatter  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-09-2004 06:19 PM                  Ooops! Sorry. I mean in terms of real $$$. >>> Phil  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-09-2004 09:55 PM                        Phil: Ask your contacts at the labs. As Ted Costas wrote previously, soundtrack application problems are a significant cause of rejected prints, and some quality defects (silver splotches and bleeding, application skips) get to theatres, requiring replacement reels, and compromise show quality until the reels can be replaced. The soundtrack developer washoff is a major portion of the fresh water used in processing prints. Water and sewer costs vary with the locality, but municipalities often use these levies (based on water usage) to encourage conservation. As you know from your experience with 70mm prints, eliminating silver soundtrack reapplication also allows simplifying the process by eliminating the first fixer and its wash.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 05-09-2004 11:27 PM                    This whole issue could be solved by eliminating 35mm in favor of 70mm.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-10-2004 01:40 AM                        quote: Steve Kraus This whole issue could be solved by eliminating 35mm in favor of 70mm. I'll drink to that!!!  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 05-10-2004 02:05 AM                        quote: Stephen Furley Leo, any idea why these [unilateral and RCA duplex VA] should have been worse than other types of VA tracks? I'd certainly buy John's explanation as far as unilateral goes. Furthermore, a stereo cell might 'read' the shuttered NR as a totally separate channel, thereby making things worse (something which wouldn't apply to RCA duplex, as the modulation pattern is identical on both sides of the waveform). With RCA duplex tracks the only thing which comes to mind is whether it has something to do with the original RCA sound cameras using ultra-violet light to make the exposure (hence the 'RCA Ultra Violet' logo on the credits of some films from the late-30s onwards). That having been said, in many original duplex tracks I've seen (or ones which have been copied photographically rather than re-recorded) the contrast between the modulation and the opaque surround is sometimes a lot lower than with other forms of VA - maybe that has something to do with it? quote: John Pytlak Leo: Any chance the difference you heard with the unilateral tracks and the RCA duplex was due to the university's white light reader being a full width mono scan, vs. the arthouse's red light stereo (split) cell? No, both cells were stereo. In fact, the A- and B- chain setups were almost identical in both venues (CP45 processors), apart from the exciter sources. I, too, would be interested to know what a red-lit mono cell would sound like, though. That having been said, I can't see how that would affect the reproduction of VD tracks, as (unless there was a serious grading/timing or developing problem with the track density) the two sides read by the left and right cells should in theory be virtually identical.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-10-2004 05:52 AM                        An ultraviolet exposing source would be quite efficient in exposing a film that is not orthochromatic or panchromatic, and sensitive only in the blue and ultraviolet. Narrow bandwidth UV also may be a little less prone to light scatter and any chromatic aberration in the exposing optics than a broad spectrum light source. A narrow bandwidth red LED likewise would not suffer from any chromatic aberration in the optical system.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 05-10-2004 06:26 AM                     Leo, I haven't run any unilateral prints with the separate shuttered GNR for years, and certainly never on red readers. What does a cinema processor do when working in mono mode? I would assume that it would add the signals from the two cells, giving something similar toa full-width mono reader. I don't know about the scanned areas of modern stereo optical systems, do the areas scanned by the two cells touch, or is there a gap between them which is not scanned? If there is, then I would imagine it could do nasty things to a unilateral track. I've run plenty of duplex tracks, but I think they've all been on 16mm, and therefore read by mono, tungsten sound heads. Yesterday I had my first experience with VD on red readers. They were either Jaxlights, or something very similar to them; not lasers or reverse scan. The films were both Japaneese, Tokyo Story, from 1953 according to the programme booklet, was a normal black and white print, with obviously a silver track, which was rather narrower than normal. It wasn't a 'squeeze' type track. The print looked a bit dupey, but obviously wasn't new. Both negative ant positive edge prints were Fuji. The print was triacetate, and very brittle in places. 'Floating Weeds', from 1959, was a colour film, there was no edge print from the negative, that from the positive was Kodak, the modern magenta type. There was very little wear on the edges of the film, this was obviously a recently made print. The track was normal VD, with a blueish tint to it, I assume it was magenta+cyan+silver. Both tracks played quite hapily, the sound quality wasn't what you would get from a modern SR track, but then you wouldn't expect it to be. I wasn't able to play these prints on conventional readers to make a comparison, there was certainly some noise to be heard, but the result wasn't obviously worse than I would have expected, and I doubt in the audience would have notice the difference, even if they have heard the film before. 'Floating Weeds' sounded better than almost all other 'colour' VD tracks that I have heard. Since, as I understand it, VD recording stock has not been made for many years, this track cannot have been re-recorded; it must have been printed from an original negative, or at least one several decades old. It certainly sounded good enough not to cause any major problems for a red-equipped cinema which occasionally runs this sort of thing. I still haven't been able to hear VD on reverse scan. I have a request to make; is there anybody in the London area, who has reverse scan, and would be prepared to run a reel of VD for me to hear? The print I have in mind is a Technicolor IB print of a cartoon, which obviously has a silver track, and which I have heard before on conventional readers, so I know what it sounds like. I hasten to point out that it is a safety print!  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-10-2004 09:51 AM                        Standard SMPTE 40-2002 specifies the area scanned by the reproducer be 0.084 +/- 0.001 inches (2.13 +/- 0.03mm) wide for a mono reproducer. Standard SMPTE 203-2003 specifies the same total scanning width, but with a 0.002 inch (0.05 mm) gap between the left and right channels for two track audio records. With a unilateral track, areas with low modulation would likely fall on the "gap" between the stereo cells, where there is no sensitivity. And with slight misalignment, it would fall to one side or the other, and be quite problematic.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-10-2004 11:35 AM                     But on the up side cinecolor prints will finally reproduce now that red readers are main stream as they had cyan only tracks and had very poor reproduction back in there day unless the theatre requiped with a red excitor and a special cell  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-10-2004 05:41 PM                  John: Thank you for your "enlightening" post of telling me to go find it out for myself. I would have thought as MR. LINK you could have at least supplied ONE link for me to pursue for an answer to my question. I guess I expected too much of you. Also, since I was NEVER connected or involved with any of the lab end of things... I have NO "connections" as you seem to assume. It was a legitimate question with out any negative connotations. Too bad you don't understand that. I will research it all on my own and post what I find. BTW: I read all of the other posts including Ted's post and I "get" all that stuff. I fail to see how that relates to my direct question. >> Phil  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-10-2004 08:49 PM                        Phil: I do not speak for the laboratories or distributors. If you have a question about pricing or cost structure, you have to ask them yourself. Waste figures, contract terms, equipment speeds, sales volumes, etc., are often considered proprietary, and couldn't be shared publicly, even if I knew them. I wouldn't ask you to betray the trust of your employers, vendors, or customers by disclosing proprietary information. Why do you expect me to?  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-10-2004 09:13 PM                  I'm not asking you to talk about any private info, you just seem to spout off about all things on all other "cyan" subjects so I natually assumed you had some insight to my question. Not a problem if you wish to keep that info "private". I understand. Thanks for being up-front about it. I thought you had some info that might have been beneficial to us all... Guess not..and that's OK. >>> Phil  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-10-2004 09:29 PM                        quote: Phil Hill you just seem to spout off about all things on all other "cyan" subjects I can speak knowledgeably about the technology of cyan dye tracks, and why I believe it is the right thing to do.  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-10-2004 09:32 PM                  I agree John, cyan **is** the future and the "right" thing to do... But that has NOTHING to do with my question. So, as I mentioned, I will do my own research. >>> Phil  |  IP: Logged

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