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Topic: Cyan Tracks
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Dominic Case
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 131
From: Sydney NSW Australia
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 05-24-2004 01:44 AM
Just caught up on the endless discussion of cyan/red LED. In particular the questions about silver (b/w) or conventional (redeveloped blue), and high-magenta tracks on tungsten or red readers.
It seems to me that the reason that high-magenta tracks were introduced was because the dye tracks committee recognised that there would be a cross-over period in which tracks would have to work on both tungsten and red readers. The high magenta track was found to be the best solution to this, so that a high-magenta print is not optimised for tungsten OR red, but is in a safe area for both.
As far as b/w (silver) tracks are concerned, do they needed different densities for best X-mod results on red or tungsten readers? I haven't done a comparison myself, but theory suggests to me that because there is only one track image (silver) and it absorbs all colours and IR, then the performance probably wouldn't vary much with the reader sensitivity. In other words, one track might suit all readers. This is speculation though. Has anyone done these tests?
But here's a question. What started all this? Was it a complaint from theatres that had installed red LED readers back in the mid-90s that their analogue soundtracks were sounding like crap? My understanding is that no-one had bothered to notice this until the original Paul Goldberg paper (presented 97, published 98). Without that initiative, we might have a much worse situation today.
It also seems to me that while the high magenta track made time for the changeover, and brought immediately improved results to the theatres with the newest (red) readers, it's had the negative effect of allowing the changeover to be postponed for several years, adding to the confusion and the proliferation of aims and setups. A cold turkey change might, on reflection, have been a cleaner way to go, though harder on the theatres at the time. Can't win.
Finally, someone asked a good question. Where was SMPTE ? The dye track committee isn't an official SMPTE committee as far as I know: but I would suggest that as a result it has been far MORE able to issue recommendations than an official SMPTE committee (bound by statutory requirements as a national standards body) would have been. I'm sure there are a couple of people on this list who know how long it takes for SMPTE to publish and approve a standard:-(
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 05-26-2004 02:02 PM
This all hinges entirely on the definition of 'successfully'. As has been noted in earlier posts, it's not that they won't play at all (by which I mean that you can't reproduce an audible soundtrack using a red reader), but rather that the subjective quality of the reproduction is often much lower. The s/n ratio and dynamic range are lower, pops and crackles are amplified, the effects of dirt and scratching (including negative dirt and scratching printed through) are more apparent, and red readers are generally a lot less forgiving to a wide range of defects.
If you accept that old mono soundtracks sound thin and hissy full stop, you probably won't perceive any defect at all. But if you know that an RCA duplex track from the late '40s should sound a lot richer and be able to reproduce far more sophisticated mixing than, say, a Visatone-Marconi VD track from the early '30s, you're likely to be disappointed when you hear the latter resembling the former.
One important point is that because they've been looked after carefully, only ever loaned to venues run by professionals and been subject to strict film handling rules (e.g. no chopping the heads and tails off), archive release prints are often a lot older than even mainstream theatrical rerelease prints. It's not uncommon to get a print struck in the '60s or '70s which, from the wear and tear it's received, gives the impression of being an almost new element. But the re-recording and printing processes used by archives weren't as good then as they are now (I once saw a demo in which a 1960s reprint and the 1990s restoration of The Third Man were shown side-by-side, with the sound flicking between the two, and it was astonishing), and sometimes those elements have shrunk a bit, too.
All of these issues taken together, IMHO, tend to degrade the overall playback experience when a 'legacy' optical track is put through a red reader. I suppose it's similar to the difference between a 78rpm shellac record played through a modern magnetic cartridge and transistor amp versus a steel needle, ribbon cartridge and valve amp.
A lot of people won't be able to hear any difference - but of course the people who are likely to want to see 35mm archive prints projected on a screen are the people who are most likely to care about such things. I suppose that gradually, over time, the problem will correct itself as new archival viewing copies are made with their tracks optimised for red readers; but for all except the most popular titles, that isn't going to happen overnight.
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. Here in Venezuela we have Christie P35GPS M35GPS/ Simplex Millenium/ Prevost P60 and P93(whit SR laser reader) and Century, are this readers ready for the Cyan Track.
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