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Topic: Cyan Tracks

Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 05-11-2004 03:24 AM

quote: Stephen Furley
Yesterday I had my first experience with VD on red readers.

Ouch! That sounds like something that someone working in a clinic for sexually transmitted diseases might say!

quote: Stephen Furley
The films were both Japaneese, Tokyo Story, from 1953 according to the programme booklet, was a normal black and white print, with obviously a silver track, which was rather narrower than normal. It wasn't a 'squeeze' type track. The print looked a bit dupey, but obviously wasn't new. Both negative ant positive edge prints were Fuji. The print was triacetate, and very brittle in places.

This wasn't the much-hyped BFI rerelease was it? The posters said 'newly restored' and the like. Does this mean that reality is that they're circulating the same knackered old 1950s prints which were kicking around the NFT 12 years ago?

As for Dolby processors and mono, I too assumed that they just combined left and right into a single channel and applied the Academy curve. Presumably there has to be a slight gap between the two cells to enable alignment for accurate channel separation.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 05-11-2004 07:09 PM

knackered

Must be some English version of Scotchguard. Maybe Brad can get the USA rights. [Big Grin]

(j/k)

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William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-12-2004 01:46 AM

Moving this over from the AC/DC thread out of consideration.

John Pytlak said:

quote:
The "high magenta" (magenta+silver) tracks have a cross-mod (XM)optimization density that is nearly the same for both tungsten light and red LED readers, so the tracks are more compatible with the MIX of readers out there now. The old (cyan+magenta+silver) tracks had to be XM optimized for one or the other, so the one they were not optimized for would have more cross-mod distortion.

If you optimize an old (cyan+magenta+silver) track for red LED readers, the tungsten readers will have less "fidelity" (more sibilant distortion). If you optimize the cross-mod of a B&W print silver track for a red LED reader, the old tungsten readers will have less "fidelity".

So to keep the optimization straight in practice:

What is the present penetration of silver-based tracks which are optimized for red LED readers? There were of course none before the cyan track initiative & the creation of the high-magenta soundtrack.

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Emma Tomiak
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 238
From: Carrollton, TX, USA
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 05-12-2004 02:39 AM

"Knackered" basically means something is crappy, torn up, worn out, or good for nothing.

For instance, I'm going to feel quite knackered after working a double shift with an 11:40 p.m. show of Troy. [sleep]

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Peter Kerchinsky
Master Film Handler

Posts: 326
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 05-12-2004 04:53 AM

We're up to 37 pages on this cyan subject.
Is this some sort of record or what?

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 05-12-2004 05:02 AM

I guess you haven't been in the Joke-A-Thon forum. [Razz]

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002

posted 05-12-2004 07:07 AM

Leo, it certainly wasn't a new print, never mind a restoration. It didn't have the 'This print is from the NFTVA' caption on the beginning, and I didn't notice any BFI boxes. This place runs on 6000 foot spools, and the print was already made up, so I didn't see the labels on the cans. I do know that 'Floating Weeds' was from Delux Film Services, because I broke down the second half of the print yesterday, so I did see the cans and boxes.

I don't know if 'Tokyo Story' was a '50s print, I would have thought it was later than that, but I don't know for sure. Apart from the brittleness it was in good condition.

The 'Floating Weeds' print looked almost new, apart from where some bright spark had cut the leaders in different places, leaving one, and two ID frames. I had to remove one of these odd loose frames due to damage; not something that I like to do. This print was on modern Kodak stock. Does making new prints from VD track negs cause any complications for labs?

On Saturday I will be running M Hulot, I don't know what type of track it has.

Looking at the converted soundheads, I don't think they are Jaxlights after all, but I'm not sure what they are. They're not reverse scan though.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 05-12-2004 08:52 PM

quote: William Hooper
What is the present penetration of silver-based tracks which are optimized for red LED readers? There were of course none before the cyan track initiative & the creation of the high-magenta soundtrack.

AFAIK, most prints made with cyan+magenta+silver tracks are currently being optimized for red LED readers. So tungsten light readers may have a bit of sibilant distortion. Of course, many are using the more compatible "high magenta" (magenta+silver) tracks.

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John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 05-12-2004 10:53 PM

Whoa, John!

That's a new claim, I think? The first I have heard.

You are saying that at some point, some distributors/labs started making "conventional" silver applicated prints that were XM optimized for red light rather than white light, instead of deciding to go to high-magenta, or staying with the status quo of white-light optimized silver? [Confused]

I had thought we could assume that any non-high magenta silver print was optimized for white light (how naive!).

Please confirm I have not misunderstood you.

Is there a term for such red XM-optimized silver prints? Are they likely marked in any way? Any ways to identify them short of a densitometer on the 2-pop (is that good enough?) and/or comparing them across both reader types?

Wow.

(It was kind of a shock to discover that new prints were deliberately being made not high-magenta; it's even more of a shock to realize that the silver prints may be XM optimized for non-silver readers. [uhoh]

)

--jhawk

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 05-13-2004 05:41 AM

I said "AFAIK", because I heard it second-hand. One of my fellow Kodak engineers visited one of the major sound houses in Hollywood. He noted that the cross-mod testing was mostly being done with red LED. It makes sense, if you realize that the vast majority of theatres are using red readers -- why would you optimize XM distortion for the small minority?

Unless something is written on the leader of the sound negative and printed through, I don't think there is specific identification.

I think some distributors were more comfortable staying with cyan+magenta+silver, optimized for the majority of theatres now using red readers, rather than use the "compromise" high-magenta tracks for the relatively short transition period to cyan dye tracks.

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William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-13-2004 06:39 AM

So in the absence of information provided as to when silver tracks began to be optimized for red readers, if the practice has been if a lab prints hig-magenta, it began to optimize silver tracks at the time of introduction of high-magenta tracks. It would be practical to assume that the change was made during setting up for high magenta.

1. When was the first high-magenta track released?

2. When did Research & Development start on high-magenta?

3. When was it proposed?

4. When was it used in limited test runs?

5. When was it put into standard use as an option for print runs?

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 05-13-2004 09:55 AM

You know, it is one thing for the industry to decide to make changes that determine what best suits their needs, but it is quite another to keep these changes which directly effect presentation quality as some kind of insider top secret.

There has been plenty of information disseminated about the white track changing over to the cyan track via a magenta intermediate (which in actuality was pretty much skipped). Those are changes that are clearly discernible to anyone handling a print. Now we are discovering, gee, that's not all; there are differently optimized tracks that could be either white or magenta! And what makes this significant is that one type of optimization will have a negative affect if played on certain equipment. To make things worse, unlike white, magenta and cyan tracks, you can't see these differently optimized tracks by looking at them. Yet, the industry seems to have introduced these differences with no identification whatsoever on the prints themselves!! I'd call that a serious, major breakdown in communication, no?

And where the hell was the SMPTE when all this was going down? It is bad enough there is an entire decade where intend aspect ratios were never printed into leader information, leaving art houses years later to guess, based on the date of the release, what plates and lenses should be used to play this picture to match the original intent as closely as possible. Likewise, there are lots of stereo prints out there that were birthed with no [STEREO] or [DOLBY STEREO] indication in the soundtrack leaders.

With the above, one is more of an aesthetics problem, with the other, a good magnifying glass and a little detective work on the track and you will be able to discover if you indeed have a stereo print or not. But here comes a parameter, XM optimization, which is totally undetectable by any visual inspection, yet the labs are making these changes incommunicado. Why wouldn't this fairly critical information be absolutely indicated on the print leaders? Do any of the entities involved with making these decisions really think theatres are going to have personnel who will, 1) take the time to test a print by ear to see which playback system sounds best, or 2) would be trained to be able to identify this by listening in the first place, or 3) be inclined to play detective at all?

IMHO, this is a serious breakdown in communication among the organizations within the industry, especially the SMPTE, to properly identify elements in a print that affect presentation. A simple line of frames in the soundtrack -- [XMO=RED] or [XMO=WHITE] -- would be all it would take for future handlers of the "interim" prints to know if they are going to get that nasty esssy distortion or not. It is quite shocking to me who naively assumed that the SMPTE, which I thought was the clearing house for exactly this kind of information, wouldn't have been ahead of the curve on this. If not by creating an additional subsection in the leader Standard to precisely address this, then would have at least issued a Recommended Practice for labs to indicate in some way, any way of their own choosing, how the soundtrack on a print has been XM optimized. Am I just being anal here, or is this not blatantly elementary?

quote:
Any parameter that directly affects the configuration of the equipment needed to properly present a film should be indicated clearly and in easily understood text or graphics in the print leaders.

F. Angel

So where are those soundtrack scanners with the fiber optic light arrays that can be driven by either red light or white light, and switchable by that convenient little mini toggle on the side of the light module? Come on Dolby and Kodak, this is your bed which you're making us sleep in, so how bout you at least put a comfortable mattress on it? And LABEL the damn prints!

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-13-2004 10:13 AM

Firstly SMPTE has no legal authority to mandate anything all they provide is prepare a volentary set of guidlines called standards
Aspect ratios have never atually been mandated there is nothingto stop a filmaker making and releasing a film in say 1.9:1 and optimizing thei cinematography for that

The amount of differenc in the optimization of the cross mod is virtually non audible in all but a perfectly designed, calibrated and maintained system I doubt a theatre with a old PD50 would hear the difference

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 05-13-2004 12:31 PM

The "high magenta" (magenta+silver) track was discussed in the SMPTE Paper "Red Readers, Silver, High-Magenta, and Cyan Analog Soundtracks: Review and Status" by Paul Goldberg (May 1998 SMPTE Journal):

http://www.dyetracks.org/ci.os.0012.reddye.html

quote:
From the previous discussion it can be seen that the industry switch to high-magenta applicated soundtracks is required for two very important reasons: first, the need to mitigate any diminished crossmod performance associated with the rapidly expanding use of red readers and, second, the need to facilitate the industry change-over to cyan dye tracks...

A five-part road map for the industry changeover to cyan dye tracks was presented at SMPTE'S First Annual Spring Film Conference and Exhibit, in March 1997. This road map, updated to reflect progress that has been made since then, calls for the following.

Changing over to high-magenta reapplicated analog soundtracks as quickly as possible. Thus far, much work has been done in this regard. To date, CFI, Deluxe, DuArt, Fotokem, and Technicolor have performed tests that verify there is essentially no difference in the audio quality derived from prints made with high-magenta soundtracks, as compared with prints made with conventional redeveloped silver tracks, whether they are played on tungsten or red readers. Work is currently going on in the area of high speed reproduction of high-magenta release prints.

The Kodak "Dye Soundtracks Laboratory Guide" says:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/sstLabGuide.shtml#s1

quote:
High magenta prints are silver plus dye prints that have been made with filtration in the printer that puts most of the sound track image in the magenta dye layer. The advantage of this format is that it provides a single type of analog sound track that can be played, with low levels of sibilant (cross-modulation) distortion, on either standard IR sound readers, or the new red-light readers. It is thus a useful transition format. All laboratories are encouraged to convert to this format at their earliest convenience. More data on printer filtration and aim print densities are provided below. High-magenta prints continue to require soundtrack redeveloper application.

The distributor specifies the type of analog track to be used. Not every distributor has switched to "high magenta" tracks. Two (MGM and Disney) have already announced conversion to cyan dye tracks.

SMPTE Recommended Practice RP104 "Cross-Modulation Tests for Variable-Area Photographic Audio Tracks" does NOT specify the type of reproducer to be used for measuring cross-modulation distortion. Good engineering practice would be to optimize prints for the most typical type of reproducer being used, which today is red LED.

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 05-13-2004 08:18 PM

I watched Kill Bill Vol.2 in a competitor`s theater recently, the first reel looked very much like B&W stock, and the Dolby Digital had dropped out. The sound was very bad with a lot of background noise. The theater is only 2 months old so I don`t think the analog reader was very much out of alignment and I know they have 5Star soundheads with red reverse scan readers. Why did the Dolby Digital drop out and why did the analog track sound so bad from the B&W film?

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