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Topic: Cyan Tracks

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 03-20-2004 07:28 AM

Daryl C.W. O'Shea wrote:

quote:
Does anyone know if MGM is planning to use applicated tracks in Canada and then use those prints for worldwide distribution, or did they just overlook Canada as is typical of most US companies?

According to surveys by the Motion Picture Theatre Associations of Canada (Adina Lebo), about 90% of Canadian screens already have red readers. Deluxe Toronto and Technicolor Mirabel already are producing a large percentage of prints for North America, so Canada could lead the way.

Dan Lyons wrote:

quote:
The Cyan layer has always been the first to fade...

Where have you been for the last 20 years? [Roll Eyes]

Ken Layton wrote:

quote:
When were cyan buzz track, cyan Dolby tone, cyan pink noise, and cyan left-right test films made available for techs to test red LED readers out with?

Now that cyan dye tracks are happening, appropriate cyan-specific test films will be available. But many tests are NOT cyan-specific. ALL of the SMPTE sound test films are still on B&W stock.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 03-20-2004 08:59 AM

Where have you been for the last 20 years?

Which is the quickest to fade now if not cyan?

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Bill Enos
Film God

Posts: 2081
From: Richmond, Virginia, USA
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 03-20-2004 09:21 AM

Played 2 Indy Jones films in the last year. Both less than 20 years old, gorgeous fluorescent pink, both. Blue not fading? HA. In the lab maybe, in the real world it does.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 03-20-2004 09:45 AM

I have an LPP print from about 1984 and the color is just fine. It's been stored at room temperature. If current stocks are as good or better than the old LPP then most of the fading issue has been taken care of. But I'd still like to know what dye fades the fastest.

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Ken Layton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1452
From: Olympia, Wash. USA
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 03-20-2004 12:07 PM

Cyan test films *will* be available? Why weren't they made available several years ago?

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 03-20-2004 12:47 PM

You don't need a "cyan test film" to line up anything in the theatre
It seems that the naysayers are making a mountain out of a none excistant molehill claiming the need for an unecesary test film

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Matt Zeiner
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 146
From: Windsor, CT USA
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 03-20-2004 12:58 PM

Buzz and X-talk films certainly don't need to change to cyan. 69T will have to be. 69P maybe... Is there any information about differences in frequency response between silver/Cyan? Focus adjustments shouldn't be affected by the change, but slit-loss adjustments might in those cases where slit loss adjustment is required (uggh...Jaxlites...)

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 03-20-2004 01:04 PM

The red readers have no appreciable level difference between what is measured between cat 69 and a dye only tone with the same percentage of modulation
The frequency response is again the same
The lab is where there is any issues in density and recording will occur

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Dan Lyons
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 698
From: Seal Beach, CA
Registered: Sep 2002

posted 03-20-2004 01:51 PM

Not too long ago I ran an acetate LPP print of "Terminator". There was a definate loss of color density in the blacks.
It was my understanding that LPP is "LOW fade", not "NO fade".

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 03-21-2004 11:34 AM

For color print films, improper storage conditions usually affect the cyan and yellow dyes first. Excessive exposure to light usually affects the magenta dye first.

It takes decades, rather than years, for noticeable color changes to occur in prints that have "low fade" dyes. The cold/dry storage recommendations in SMPTE Recommended Practice RP131 should slow any noticeable changes to over a century.

From about 1950 through 2000, (before current "high magenta" analog tracks), cyan dye was an integral part of every analog soundtrack, even in the years prior to the "low fade" dyes introduced by Kodak over 20 years ago.

Dolby Laboratories has remeasured some of the earliest experiments using pure cyan dye tracks, dating back to the mid 1990s, and found no significant change in sound performance after almost a decade of room-temperature keeping.

Faded prints of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" (1981) have been discussed on Film-Tech before, and are likely on print film that did not have "low fade" dyes.

"The Terminator" opened in October 1984, but I'm not sure all prints were on Kodak "low fade" stock. How do you know the "loss of color density" was a change, and not in the original prints? As Steve Kraus notes, Kodak prints from 1984 have generally held up very well.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 03-21-2004 07:34 PM

What can be done to improve depot storage conditions? I have some LPP print material from 1982 (which is about as early as possible for LP) that looks great, and that's been stored in room-temperature environments for most of its life. I have no doubt that many depots aren't even close to being properly climate-controlled.

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Dominic Case
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 131
From: Sydney NSW Australia
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 03-21-2004 07:53 PM

quote:
Obviousy MGM's prints will now be useless in much of the world

Steve, you don't give up, do you.
Some parts of "the rest of the world" are more advanced than the US in their adoption of RED LED readers. And if the US is advanced enough for MGM to move forward with confidence, then your comment is way off the mark. They won't be doing this if there is a risk that they'll have a mountain of "useless" prints on their hands.

For years those who have actually modernised their equipment in response to the cautious, careful and well-tested program led by the dyetrack committee, have been waiting (increasingly impatiently) for the distributors to make the next move. Now it's beginning to happen.

As for cyan dye-fade: if the cyan dye fades enough to disable the sound, it's going to affect the picture as well, unless I'm missing something fairly basic. The dyes are much more stable now, but in any case, no print is going to become unuseable simply because of a short-lived cyan soundtrack.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 03-21-2004 09:59 PM

It's a rather large planet. I'm sure there are enough incandescent bulb soundheads out there to justify the phrase "much of the world." Do you have LED penetration stats for China, India, South America, etc? Whether these would not be likely candidates to play a recycled MGM USA print is immaterial since I already stated that I do not know to what extent their prints are recycled.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 03-22-2004 01:39 AM

Towards the end of my days in the business imported US release prints were increasingly common, especially of blockbuster titles. Presumably it was cheaper to ship a load over and then ultrasonically clean them than to do a whole new print run (especially as there is no language issue). They were dead easy to spot because they almost always came on the 4" cores used in the plastic split-spools on which prints are shipped in the US, whereas British labs tend to supply elements on 3" ones. There was also a time when one of the distributors used a somewhat dodgy facilities house, as the reels would arrive shrink-wrapped in polythene with perchloroethylene deposits still on them, and stank to high heaven.

As for red readers, I'd guess that the majority of multiplexes and big chain sites probably have them by now, but I know of many small chain, independent and part-time venues (e.g. arts centres which show films once or twice a week) which still don't. If the UK distributors are about to start importing cyan prints (or strike them over here), I'd suggest that they start putting warning sheets in every shipping case they send out, or even 'phoning round all the venues on their books.

It seems that MGM has decided to stop faffing around and take the 'baptism of fire' approach to cyan, the rationale being that if any theatres are unconvinced of the need to install red readers, they sure as hell won't be after they've received their first cyan print and been unable to show it.

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Dominic Case
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 131
From: Sydney NSW Australia
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 03-22-2004 01:56 AM

quote:
I'd suggest that they start putting warning sheets in every shipping case they send out, or even 'phoning round all the venues on their books.

Look back to page one of this thread, last July.

quote:
Looks like it's finally happening for real...
According to a fax I just received, the September 19 release of "Anything Else"

then. . .

quote:
Until another studio steps in, I still don't believe the switch is finally here.

(pinch yurself, Brad [Wink]

)

I guess MGM will do the same as Dreamworks did, and circulate the theatres with the right information. They'd be mugs to assume that the theatres know what is going on.

And yet, no word on what is happening here in the darker continents [Frown]

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