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Topic: DTS discs not arriving with Prints

Richard May
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1057
From: Floral Park, NY USA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted 10-09-2007 05:36 PM

Sorry Mark, but if I had a product that was not being delivered by my distibutors, I would take care of it myself. I think that is the main issue here. DTS is having a problem with the distributors getting the disks to people and they don't seem to be doing ANYTHING about it. It's not like this problem just developed. It's been going on far too long.

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Jack Ondracek
Film God

Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 10-09-2007 06:20 PM

I don't think it's the distributors. Last year, I only ran one release print that didn't come with a disk, and that was because it was too low-budget to have it in the first place.

No, the problem is with lazy-butt theatres that don't return the disks with the prints. I'll admit, it's even easy to do by accident.

Our local ETS (DFS Seattle) depot assured me once that they do want those disks back so they can return them to the prints... and they say they do. Other area depots may not... I don't know. In any case, I can't see that this would be much of a problem at all if the booth ops took the time to put the disks back in the boxes. I'm pretty sure most of the prints started with 'em.

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Richard May
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1057
From: Floral Park, NY USA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted 10-09-2007 08:23 PM

Simple solution to that. Charge the theaters when they don't return the disks. Watch how fast that stops then.

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Brian Guckian
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 594
From: Dublin, Ireland
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 10-10-2007 11:35 AM

Question: at what point are DTS discs inserted into the distribution chain?

Are they added at the lab...OR at the distribution depot? Because if it is post-laboratory then it would seem easy for all sorts of delays and problems to occur.

Instead, if the discs were added to the print contents at the lab when the film was being prepared for shipping, then that would tie in with the philosophy that the discs are part of each print. That would also readily facilitate the use of the yellow disc holders, etc.

(This being aside to the download solution, which after all wasn't around when DTS first debuted, so could legitimately be introduced now as part of ongoing product development)

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 10-10-2007 11:42 AM

The download system won't work due to problems/paranoia with "rights." Also, piracy in foreign markets.

I believe that discs are inserted at the same time the film is put on shipping reels, probably NOT at the lab. Louis

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Paul Gordon
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 580
From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 10-10-2007 03:35 PM

The problem is the distributors.. certain distributors don't want to pay for the rights to use DTS, so no discs arrive with the prints. For example Alliance Atlantis (in Canada) never sends discs with its prints. Also sometimes the timecode is printed on the print..but the discs are never made to save costs. Its really to bad there isn't a server to download these discs. Is copyright really an issue when whole movies being sent on hard drives or across servers for digital cinema?

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Andy Frodsham
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 238
From: Stoke on Trent, Staffs, UK
Registered: Nov 2006

posted 10-10-2007 04:44 PM

So, what are we going to do? Who can we contact? If nothing changes we will still be complaining about this situation in one, two or even five years time (assuming film is still around then)!

Are there any representitives of DTS who might be willing to comment on this?

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 10-10-2007 06:42 PM

quote: Paul Gordon
Is copyright really an issue when whole movies being sent on hard drives or across servers for digital cinema?

Remember that with digital cinema, content is encrypted beyond imagination, and can only be unlocked for a certain period of time using a key that is specific to that title and serial number of the player.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 10-10-2007 07:03 PM

So, why can't this be done for DTS? Surely each XD10 could have its own public/private key pair and an encrypted burnable ISO image could be provided on demand that would play only on a particular XD10. Not sure what would happen to owners of the 6 and 6D units, but at least it would make the format a viable option for new installs/upgrades. If anyone really cared, the known owner of the XD10 could be cross-referenced to the list of theatres that booked a particular title.

Still, all of this seems pretty silly since I fail to see how it would be useful to have a pirated copy of a film's soundtrack with no picture. And anyone who had access to a print from which to pirate the picture would have access to the optical track and probably one or two other digital tracks as well.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 10-11-2007 01:46 AM

Seems logical that if no one is worried about the unaccounted for discs containing the unencrypted soundtrack floating around the country (because we know they are not in the film cans where they once started out), then they certainly shouldn't be worried about password protected, encrypted datastream downloads -- at least not if all the freakin brain cells were working.

Software companies seem to have worked that out well enough to be confident that they can allow downloads of their product and it is secure enough to protect THEIR copyrighted material from being compromised. What's with the studios whose copyrighted content winds up traveling thru every imaginable transmission system, and all THAT doesn't seem to freak them out, but heavy password protected FTP, encrypted datastream download DOES?

They are a morass of contradiction and frightening stupidity.

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Andy Frodsham
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 238
From: Stoke on Trent, Staffs, UK
Registered: Nov 2006

posted 10-11-2007 08:31 AM

Oh well, I suppose it's down to flogging the DTS system then and buying Dolby!

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John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 10-11-2007 10:07 AM

So, umm, you guys know that DTS has representatives who read these forums and comment on a technical basis where they can. Since this has been a perennial topic, I think it's safe to say they are well aware of it and probably doing what they can. That they have not answered publicly probably means they are not in a position to give a good answer, probably because there are difficult political and managerial problems involved in the solution. I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss the problem and DTS's solutions, you should contact DTS privately.

Remember that it's not in our interest to make vendor representatives feel uncomfortable in this forum -- if the forum is too hostile, they may be obliged to leave.

Scott asks, "Still, all of this seems pretty silly since I fail to see how it would be useful to have a pirated copy of a film's soundtrack with no picture. And anyone who had access to a print from which to pirate the picture would have access to the optical track and probably one or two other digital tracks as well."

My understanding is that there have been multiple documented instances of through-the-air camcorder captures of films being combined with DTS discs to produce pirated films with high-quality audio and low-medium quality picture. The effort involved to get audio off of DTS discs is a lot less than the effort involved to get it off a print, and from the perspective of the studios, the battle against piracy is very much about "raising the bar."

One can imagine a lot of complex (which means difficult-to-debug, manage, etc.) cryptographic schemes that could orphan processors older than the XD10, but when it comes down it, in most cases I expect getting DTS to FedEx copies of the discs to you is just as effective. This they will do.

--jhawk

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Patrick de Groot
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 161
From: Sprang-Capelle, Netherlands
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 10-11-2007 11:26 AM

DVDScr anyone?
No trip to the cinema needed to get your ready to recode or copy source.

[Roll Eyes]

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Brian Guckian
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 594
From: Dublin, Ireland
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 10-11-2007 11:53 AM

quote: Louis Bornwasser
I believe that discs are inserted at the same time the film is put on shipping reels, probably NOT at the lab. Louis

Thanks Louis, that helps in understanding the procedures used.

quote: Paul Gordon
The problem is the distributors.. certain distributors don't want to pay for the rights to use DTS, so no discs arrive with the prints. For example Alliance Atlantis (in Canada) never sends discs with its prints

That seems to answer my earlier questions on contractural issues. The problem is however that if the Filmmaker wishes to release the film in DTS (as decided at the mix stage), then there should be a contractural mechanism that makes this happen down the chain to the cinema. It shouldn't be an option that can be avoided if e.g. a downstream party believes the "cost" is "too high".

DTS is a great system and should be treated equally with the other two systems. IMHO the decision of what release formats to use should be in the hands of the Filmmaker. Once they've decided what to do then everything should flow from that, and fulfil on their intentions.

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 10-11-2007 12:28 PM

quote: Brian Guckian
The problem is however that if the Filmmaker wishes to release the film in DTS (as decided at the mix stage), then there should be a contractural mechanism that makes this happen down the chain to the cinema.

There can't be such a contractual mechanism. Why? Because Dolby would cry foul.

Saying "A movie being mixed in DTS requires you, contractually, to play it in DTS" would be the same as saying "A movie being mixed in SRD requires you, contractually, to play it in SRD." And since movies are almost always mixed in all 3 of the major digital formats, such contractual requirements would conflict with each other.

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