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Topic: Is THX still relevant?
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Tom Petrov
Five Guys Lover
Posts: 1121
From: El Paso, TX
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 02-20-2011 10:58 PM
quote: Manny Knowles
I don't know about y'all but I'm pretty much done with the theoretical, academic, historical and aesthetic part of this discussion.
THX made a difference, it was a great thing to do -- No question there -- but now I want to hear from the folks who make the business decisions nowadays: How relevant is THX today?
And I'm curious if ANY of your customers are begging you to pursue it.
What is the MAIN technological enhancement your customers talk to you about? D-cinema? 3D? THX? Something else..?
And, no -- I don't mean to imply that THX can't improve any of these technologies -- I'm trying to find out if CUSTOMERS still ask for THX. Because I'm SURE that's ultimately what made it "relevant" in the past, and I have a hunch that's what makes it (...umm...) "less relevant" today.
I don't think THX means anything anymore to customers. IMAX IMO has replaced THX in a way. Lucasfilm was caught with their pants down, just imagine if "a 3D THX Experience" etc were available where THX re-masters source and presents it in a THX cinema. That would of been lovely.
THX always had good DVD/LDs/VHS releases and these release were always better than a non-THX mastered disc or tape.
Also, the fee for THX has to go, instead, charge a sur-charge like IMAX/ETX etc.
To become relevant again, THX would need to present the films just IMAX or AMC ETX etc etc.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 02-21-2011 03:47 PM
I think the fundamental problem is movie studios and movie theater chains really don't know how to market things like good sound properly. The more I think about it I believe the theaters should be selling customers on the overall experience.
The central problem is various aspects of the presentation are sold separately as some sort of gimmick. I think that's a big mistake. The assumption is only one gimmick is needed per auditorium, and maybe perhaps only install these gimmicks in just a couple of the theater's 10 or more auditoriums. I saw this a lot in the 1990s. One house would be THX-certified yet only have Dolby SR capability while the next house had DTS. Dolby Digital or SDDS might be found in a couple other booths just to have all the logos covered. Stadium seating turned into a big deal in 1995. At that point many new stadium seated theaters ditched THX because one gimmick, stadium seating, was enough.
Would any of us like to live with only one arm and no legs? Or how about one leg and no arms? Do we really need two eyes? Or maybe we need to make a choice between being able to see or hear but not have both. Lots of movie theaters are being operated in just such a manner. Let's install digital projection, perhaps even digital 3D and push that in the ads while letting other aspects of the show quality slide.
THX had the best chance out of any theater "gimmick" to be the seal of approval on overall great presentation quality, but Lucasfilm primarily sold it only as a sound system. THX was really just a certification process on sound systems but did affect some other aspects of the presentation. Audiences were confused by this. So were executives at theater chains, which explains the mindset that THX wasn't needed since things like DTS or Dolby Digital was enough. They didn't think theaters needed both when in fact they really did.
I like to bring up how successful restaurants are operated as an analogy to how theaters should be operated. People are visiting good restaurants for more than just the food. The overall dining experience is the key and many factors go into delivering a good experience. The same thing applies to movie theaters. That's especially important today considering the ever growing sophistication of home theater.
quote: Marco Giustini
Today the know how is - IMHO - better then it used to be and it is easier to design and build a well-sounding auditorium without THX.
Theater chains can do just as good a job on their own with sound without involving THX. Unfortunately, when they're doing it on their own they're free to make cost cutting compromises at any point in the design and installation phase. Once the theater is in operation the bosses can choose to neglect the sound system instead of making any effort to maintain it. And why bother? The movie is in "digital 3D," why say anything about "digital sound" especially if the sound isn't very good?
quote: Tom Petrov
I don't think THX means anything anymore to customers. IMAX IMO has replaced THX in a way.
IMAX and THX aren't the same thing. To say IMAX has replaced THX is like saying steak has replaced ice cream as a favorite dessert. The only thing IMAX and THX have in common is brand names associated with movie theaters. That's where the similarity ends. The idea that any customer would see both as gimmicks and not really understand each process past the gimmick label is yet another confirmation of the bigger overall problem.
quote: Tom Petrov
THX always had good DVD/LDs/VHS releases and these release were always better than a non-THX mastered disc or tape.
As fun as it was to see a THX trailer on a DVD, I think the commercialization of THX into home theater did more to hurt the brand than help it. The whole enterprise really jumped the shark when it got into certifying computer speakers.
quote: Tom Petrov
Also, the fee for THX has to go, instead, charge a sur-charge like IMAX/ETX etc.
I believe new things like these IMAX also-ran efforts, like Cinemark's XD, Carmike's Big-D, ETX, etc. are making a bad situation even worse. They're legitimizing sub-par presentation quality as "standard" in regular theaters and then charging a ridiculous premium to see the same 2K movie file projected on a somewhat bigger screen and with surround sound that actually works to some degree.
IMHO, commercial movie theaters need to be getting presentation quality right on ALL of the screens in the theater, not just one or two premium priced houses. And they need to be doing so without the wallet-busting price premium.
I might be willing to pay an extra premium for an experience that provides plush luxury seating, waiter service at the press of a call button, a 21 and over aged crowd, etc. I am not willing to pay a high premium merely just for the sound and picture to be done right. Good sound and picture is part of the basics. That should be delivered in any theater.
This compartmentalization of different quality levels of auditoriums will only work to give people more excuses to stay home and watch the movie in the living room. Waited a week too long and missed the movie while it was on the big "XD" screen? Guess I'll see it on Blu-ray instead. Don't feel like paying an arm and a leg above normal ticket price for audio that actually works? Guess I'll see it on Blu-ray and listen to the audio on home speakers I know aren't blown and also where I can control the volume level.
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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"
Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 02-21-2011 11:31 PM
First of all - Please note - The TOTAL SILENCE from management who would pay for THX certification today is DEAFENING.
quote: Mitchell Dvoskin
seeing a film in a THX certified auditorium means that they are hearing the film exactly the way the director and sound mixers intended.
In theory...but probably not in practice. First of all, good luck sitting through a movie playing at "7.0" volume. IMHO playing a movie at anything other than reference level (even if it's necessary) is a compromise. Not that this is the end of the world since I don't think today's directors have much of a "vision" anyway. If we're upholding anyone's vision, it is that of an executive somewhere. And, I assure you, he doesn't know what the movie is really supposed to sound like. He was probably on his cel phone during the mix (if he was even around at all).
And I have to say...digital *did* go a long way to solving the same problem. I could argue that it went further, because it made even non-THX cinemas sound much better, simply because we were no longer subjected to neglected A-Chains. And I don't know of any digital (sound) theatres that don't have the full complement of speakers. Many analog houses were mono or center+surround only.
I'm not saying that digital+THX together is a bad idea. Just that my guess is the added benefit of THX on top of digital isn't enough to "register" with most people.
Personally, if I was forced to choose one over the other, I'd have to go with digital and then take my best shot at making the room as good as I could with the available budget. I can't fake digital, but I could probably give THX a run for its money.
quote: Tom Petrov
I don't think THX means anything anymore to customers. IMAX IMO has replaced THX in a way.
quote: Bobby Henderson
IMAX and THX aren't the same thing. To say IMAX has replaced THX is like saying steak has replaced ice cream as a favorite dessert. The only thing IMAX and THX have in common is brand names associated with movie theaters. That's where the similarity ends. The idea that any customer would see both as gimmicks and not really understand each process past the gimmick label is yet another confirmation of the bigger overall problem.
I agree with both statements -- and FWIW I didn't read that as though Tom was mixing his metaphors -- after all, he added "...to customers...in a way."
I think it's highly likely that most consumers back in the day believed that THX was the actual track format. So, just as THX appeared to have "replaced" Dolby (analog), the digital formats came along and appeared to "replace" THX.
Actually, this business of working with a limited set of crayons pervades the entire movie business, going back to mid-century. Instead of just adding more crayons, we arrive at a point where there can be only so many of them. Features replace shorts, sound replaces silent, narrative fiction "wins" over documentary, color totally replaces black-and-white, cinemascope "wins" the widescreen war, stereo replaces mono, optical replaces mag, 70mm loses to 35mm, "center-only" replaces panned dialogue, digital replaces film (soon), 3D replaces 2D (at least at Disney)...
This is the total opposite of the formative years from turn-of-the-century through to just after WWII. In the first 50 years, we see technological and aesthetic expansion.
quote: Bobby Henderson
I'm not familiar with THX certified VHS tapes. That seems a little like spraying Channel No. 5 perfume on a turd. The pretty fragrance doesn't hide the feces underneath.
Anytime I wanted to get Tom Holman upset, I'd just ask him about THX on VHS. And then stand back. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ![[evil]](graemlins/evil.gif) ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Brad Miller
Administrator
Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99
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posted 02-22-2011 02:00 AM
Tom, Manny really has his head on straight regarding the whole THX issue. THX mastering really isn't going to do anything in today's world of DCPs. Now back with 35mm, they did a nice job keeping the labs on their toes, but those days are long gone and 35mm prints today are quickly getting worse. (I saw something a month or so ago that looked absolutely AWFUL, even though the print was in mint condition. It is really sad.)
Its also too late for THX to mean anything to the masses anymore. They blew it by certifying everything under the sun from toilets to human babies (just ask Joe).
From a sound standpoint, as critical as room acoustics are, I've found the tech tuning the room has far more influence over the final sound. The problem with THX is that there are 2 schools of thought to sound tuning. Either the system is calibrated "to the line" and that's that, or the system is calibrated and then a very careful bit of fine tuning is performed on a reel of sample material that the tech has seen hundreds of times.
The second way is the proper way, but it requires the tech to REALLY know how that reel is supposed to sound or they will cause more damage than good!
For example, I can go into a multiplex and calibrate every auditorium and they will all play at 7 for the features (except Michael Bay movies) and they will all sound near identical. However any other tech can come in and calibrate one of those rooms and it simply will not sound the same. That's not to say it will sound better or worse, and of course it will probably sound similar, but it certainly will not sound the same.
So if it doesn't sound the same...
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Tom Petrov
Five Guys Lover
Posts: 1121
From: El Paso, TX
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 02-22-2011 03:48 AM
quote: Joe Redifer
I surely hope you found that example online and not in your personal collection, because if you own the Speed 2 DVD then anything you say or anything you have ever said is automatically rendered invalid.
Joe-I have over 2000 titles in my collection. I see everything!
I have been known to have two movies on the go at the same time. Right now I am half way thru Signs and 1/2 way through Sex, Lies, and Laserdiscs. I have even been known to watch my movies like one would read a book.
quote: Brad Miller
Its also too late for THX to mean anything to the masses anymore
Well I do not agree with this. There is still a chance for THX but they to change at the Cinema front, THX needs to re-master the source material and play it exclusively in their cinemas (you probably would agree, 35mm prints suck and Real 3D is dark). Do not pass the certification on the owner but instead pass on the certification on the consumer.
IMO, if it wasn't for THX, we would not see AVX, ETX, Empire Extra etc.
IMAX started all of this with their retrofit d-cinemas and DMR process.
New York Times THX
According to Lucasfilm, the 400 T.H.X. screens took in an average of $34,499 during the opening week of ''Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade,'' compared with $21,582 for the average theater industrywide.
The above sounds very similar to the periodic annoucements that the 300 IMAX screens brought in this amount of dollars.
In my area, when you open up the paper you see, AVX, ETX, Empire EXTRA and the IMAX Experience....nowhere do you see THX and I live in a major market. Sometimes you even see "A Dolby Digital Cinema" above the cinema doors.
Don't get me wrong. I love a THX cinema. I still remember which theatres were THX back in the day. The Uptown, Eglinton, The York, and The Sussex Centre ring a bell. All of these closed but there were THX cinemas at the Coliseum, Sherway, Canada Square, Square One, and The Queensway. Sherway had three THX cinemas back in 1987.
There is not one THX Advertised Cinema in the Greater Toronto Area. There are five IMAX megaplex theatres and a whole number of AVX/ETX cinemas.
From the home video front. I have always found for the most part that THX products looked and sounded better than non THX products. My THX laserdiscs sure look better than my non THX discs, same thing with DVDs.
I think it would be amazing to see movie ads say "A 3D THX Experience" and then see it in a THX theatre...
Rant over~
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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 02-22-2011 10:05 AM
No brand is truly dead, it's just resting while it's waiting to be resurrected by a benefactor who finds value in it. Even though THX has lost its luster with the industry, there is still marketing value in it. However, as with any marketing effort, the amount of value it brings is going to be directly relational to the money and effort put into it.
I agree that THX has done next to nothing in the marketing of the brand for many years. Its peak was probably the Simpsons trailer, and it has been coasting ever since. But as a mark, as a brand, as a marketing hook, I would bet that THX still has lots of miles left on it. Resurrecting the recognition of the brand in the minds of the audience would take very little, but it's the education of what the brand means that would take some concerted effort.
There would have to be a clear and consistent message about what it means to be THX certified. Certification wouldn't be something that would be a web form that a chain would fill in where they hit the "Pay Now" button at the bottom. Branding, marketing, education, and delivery on the promise would all have to happen for it not to ring hollow with audiences.
Unfortunately, THX followed the money and concentrated on the consumer market. Like DTS, they saw the cash flow heading to the home instead of the theater.
Bobby's post about the overall experience and comments about only one gimmick being all that theaters thought they needed are right on the mark. Theaters created a situation where people bought into THX, but it backfired when audiences didn't want to see a movie if it wasn't in the few THX screens that theater had. When DTS and Dolby Digital were introduced, they were doled out like precious candies at a party, which was then exacerbated when stadium seating came along. Instead of being able to get your movie in the THX auditorium with digital sound and stadium seating, you more than likely had to choose between them. Mutually exclusive features suck, and audiences will show that.
Give me a perfectly tuned auditorium with a perfect picture coming from a perfectly adjusted projector using the best source material possible. Make sure the seats are comfortable and the crowd behaves itself. Put some effort into the design and upkeep of the auditorium and the theater in the general. Keep the bathrooms clean, and offer good quality concessions that aren't priced out of line with concessions at other events. Charge reasonable prices without surcharges for things that don't include above and beyond services (seat-side service, etc.)
Make the overall experience enjoyable, and I'll be glad I came no matter how bad the movie ends up being.
Call that THX or call it Fred, I don't care. Do that, and they will come. That is my manifesto.
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