|
|
 
|
|
Author
|
Topic: Is THX still relevant?
|
Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 02-22-2011 10:08 AM
quote: Manny Knowles
I'm not saying that digital+THX together is a bad idea. Just that my guess is the added benefit of THX on top of digital isn't enough to "register" with most people.
It's very easy to do digital sound wrong, and it's often done wrong. Theater chains skimp on certain details to save some money on construction and then they skimp on maintenance to save more money. In the end they can still put the Dolby Digital logo on the marquee if they like, but the sound is still crappy nonetheless.
To get that "THX Certified" label theaters were forced to spend a lot more money on wall treatment, the baffle behind the screen, the design of the air conditioning system and other room details. That was in addition to installing THX approved gear. Those points were not negotiable, unlike the situation where the movie theater is trying to peddle its own take on THX.
Much more often than not, a non-THX theater will not have a baffle behind the screen and lack a lot of other details typical to a room built for THX standards. I find echo and an overall hollow character to audio to be very common to most stadium seated theaters. Sound leakage between auditoriums is also common if the volume is raised anywhere near reference level; it's often running much lower. On top of that, blown speakers and dead amplifiers contribute to poor quality audio. It may be "digital" but it's still crap.
It takes a serious investment of money to do theater sound well. Both in terms of auditorium design and construction as well as continued attention and maintenance. I agree it is fully possible for a movie theater to match or surpass what THX does with an auditorium without involving THX certification. Unfortunately this is just not happening in the overwhelming majority of theaters.
The impression I get is this: if the theater was really willing to spend all the money needed to get acoustics and sound containment just right they would spend a little more to stick the THX logo on it so the effort would at least be somewhat recognizable to the public. Right now they're not bothering.
quote: Tom Petrov
There is still a chance for THX but they to change at the Cinema front, THX needs to re-master the source material and play it exclusively in their cinemas (you probably would agree, 35mm prints suck and Real 3D is dark). Do not pass the certification on the owner but instead pass on the certification on the consumer.
THX doesn't need to get into re-mastering anything. If a movie production intends for the movie to be seen on giant sized screens and presented properly on such screens they should make serious changes to the gear they use in production and post production. Post-processing the movie after it is finished is really a non-starter. It's just another cheap-ass compromise.
I was never sold on the IMAX DMR process when it was dealing with 35mm film. I think it's a laughable waste when dealing with 2K digital intermediate material. HD quality material blown up on a full sized 15/70 IMAX screen just looks like a big giant blur. It's awful. No amount of post processing can overcome the lack of native resolution in the 2K material.
These XD, ETX, blah blah fake IMAX also ran theaters are another laughable waste. They're really not delivering a product that's remarkably different from what a standard theater should be able to deliver.
If I really want to see 2K video blown up on a giant sized screen, I can watch the movie on one of the two 80' wide screens at the Warren Theaters Moore 14. THX Dolby Digital Cinema. And no surcharge above standard ticket price! Still, 2K video blown up that big really isn't so hot. Gotta sit way back up in the balcony (which costs extra) or just watch the show on a more modest sized screen.
| IP: Logged
|
|
Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003
|
posted 02-22-2011 10:43 AM
I have not been to any of the RPX, ETX, or XD screens, because they don't exist within 150 miles of my location. I do have experience with the Marcus UltraScreen, which I understand to be pretty much the same concept rolled up in a different brand name.
In the case of the UltraScreen, the screen is big; usually around 72-75 feet wide. The auditoriums are nicely sized; around 100 feet deep. Sound systems are quite good, and while they had problems with the picture on first-generation UltraScreens, the ones they've installing in the past 3-4 years haven't had those issues. The back of the auditoriums have VIP reserved seating, but they are too far back and too high for my taste.
They do add an upcharge for the UltraScreen shows, but it's minimal. Normal price for a non-3D adult evening ticket is $10, and the UltraScreen adds a $1 surcharge. The reserved seating adds $5, for a total of $16, but it comes with a $5 voucher to put towards food and drinks.
Considering the 30% upcharges that other chains are tacking on to their ETX/RPX/XD/etc. shows, Marcus is presenting us with a real bargain!
The problem is, that there are only two UltraScreens at most at a theater that has them. In Marcus' hometown of Milwaukee, WI, there are only two locations that have UltraScreens, for a grand total of three in the entire metro Milwaukee area. For the most part, the rest of the screens are standard, run-of-the-mill auditoriums with unremarkable appointments and performance, and seeing a movie that is not on one of the UltraScreens is like going to McDonalds to eat. It's food, but it's not a spectacular experience.
So, a lot of effort and expense went into the UltraScreens, and they are good screens, but they make the difference between them and Marcus' standard screens all that much more unimpressive. Once a movie leaves the UltraScreen, I wonder how many people think that they might as well wait for the home video release? I know I do.
I think it's great to have these showcase screens, especially when the upcharge isn't very high. But I don't need a 72-foot screen to enjoy myself. I can't help but lament that perhaps they shot their budget on the UltraScreens and the rest were just equipped with selection #4 out of the catalog because the price was right.
It gets back to the gimmick thing. UltraScreen is a great marketing gimmick, but were they at the cost of getting better performance into the rest of the screens in that location? What about the other dozen or so locations that don't have UltraScreens? If it's going to cost me an extra dollar to get decent performance, I'm happy to pay it. It's just unfortunate that the selection of movies available is so limited.
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
|
posted 02-22-2011 08:30 PM
There is plenty to agree and disagree with to go around.
Let go for Manny, at the moment, since he has expressed some definite thoughts that seem to come from an exhibitor's and a patron's point of view.
quote: Manny Knowles
First of all - Please note - The TOTAL SILENCE from management who would pay for THX certification today is DEAFENING.
That is certainly accurate. Quality is not what is desired by the majority of exhibitors. It is the perception of quality. Why pay for and deliver quality when you can fool some of the people some of the time?
quote: Manny Knowles
In theory...but probably not in practice. First of all, good luck sitting through a movie playing at "7.0" volume. IMHO playing a movie at anything other than reference level (even if it's necessary) is a compromise.
This was an answer to a statement to the effect that a THX theatre will let one of the audience hear what the mixers heard. Depending on the movie, one can indeed listen comfortably at "7" I even have a T-shirt from Oceans 11 that stated (to the effect of) that the system was tuned and played at reference and nobody complained. The T-shirt was made by the person who recorded the film (Larry Blake). His films really can be played at reference without a pain in the ear.
However, the point is that THX theatres most closely reproduce what it sounded like to the person that mixed the film.
quote: Manny Knowles
And I have to say...digital *did* go a long way to solving the same problem. I could argue that it went further, because it made even non-THX cinemas sound much better, simply because we were no longer subjected to neglected A-Chains. And I don't know of any digital (sound) theatres that don't have the full complement of speakers. Many analog houses were mono or center+surround only.
You can argue it...but it would be the wrong argument. Believe it or not, THX is MORE about getting the room right and THEN using equipment that can take advantage of that. Digital is neither here no there in that equation. If the room sucks, digital won't fix that at all. And, just prove a point...Carmike has indeed, with D-Cinema, no less, done MONO with a PCM digital track. You can lead an exhibitor to quality, but you can't make him deliver it!
Digital did take most of the A-Chain out of problem...but that was but one part of the problem. Digital did create its own and MOST people designing systems don't know how much demand there is now on Subwoofer and Surrounds. THX rooms won't have that issue.
quote: Manny Knowles
I can't fake digital, but I could probably give THX a run for its money.
Actually, Dolby-SR has "faked" many a person. And faking THX...YOU probably could not unless you know more about sound and designing the system than I have been able to perceive...For heaven's sake, you cut out poor defenseless Tantalum capacitors on CP200 boards!
That said, the bulk of what Manny has expressed, I agree with.
quote: Brad Miller
From a sound standpoint, as critical as room acoustics are, I've found the tech tuning the room has far more influence over the final sound. The problem with THX is that there are 2 schools of thought to sound tuning. Either the system is calibrated "to the line" and that's that, or the system is calibrated and then a very careful bit of fine tuning is performed on a reel of sample material that the tech has seen hundreds of times.
This one I'll disagree with you on...to a point. That is, room acoustics are THE most important factor in obtaining good sound. There is no question that the tech tuning can make better, or worse, the sound but if the room sucks...so will the outcome. I've done many "tricks" in mitigating bad acoustics but it is always a compromise.
Nothing is going to beat a perfect room with perfect equipment...no tuning is necessary. Does that room exist? I have not found it but I have had time were little to no tuning was required. They always come out sounding best and most intelligible.
One thing that THX still does is help with the design phase of a theatre to get the room as good as possible. It isn't enough to just use equipment that is good...you HAVE to get the room right FIRST.
Another nifty thing about THX rooms and the equipment used to tune them...more often than not, even if a different tech checks the room, I found that they read the same on the analyzer. It debunks the idea that one is EQing for just the sweet spot...the mics were in different places yet the results were nearly identical. A bad room/equipment won't get you that.
THX is a worthy thing to have (or to go through)...I do question the license fee if it is too high. However, if it isn't licensed, there is nothing to keep the theatre for letting things fall apart. An annual check up (by someone that DOES NOT WORK FOR THE COMPANY) should be done to ensure all is good.
-Steve
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"
Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002
|
posted 02-23-2011 02:03 PM
SR has faked me out (at least) once -- in one of my own theatres. I think it was CHICAGO. So, yes, it's possible. But I wouldn't defend it as the norm. Given the same room (unchanged) upgrading from analog to digital is a huge, noticeable change that the average customer would notice. Is anyone in their right mind really going to try and deny this? Please let's not lose our way with anecdotal trivia. Focus, people. Focus!
It is possible that digital can be "done wrong" but those same theatres were probably doing analog wrong too. Again, I'm not going to waste time defending/arguing anomalies such as this.
There is no denying that a lot goes into creating a THX room -- and I certainly believe that it's worth the trouble to construct a theatre correctly -- but I don't think most listeners can tell the difference. The average customer never had a clear understanding of what was behind THX. I'm not sure whose "fault" this is -- I've tried explaining THX to friends and family members -- and even film students -- and it seems too complicated or too boring for them. Most people I have talked to were sure that "it had something to do with the surrounds."
Even in the 80's (when I wasn't working in cinema) I had a pretty good grasp of what THX was -- but I stopped seeking out THX theatres when the logo started appearing in the home and in the car and on computer speakers and...did I already mention...VHS tapes!? For me, THX had become a standard that had lowered its standards.
Complicating matters -- former THX cinemas had stopped paying for the branding privilege. They were still well-constructed, good-sounding theatres. And, then, digital sound came along. For me, it became more about trusting my ears rather than seeking out those three letters.
Note that I've never said that constructing a theatre to THX spec is a waste of time -- but the only way we are going to see an increase in THX certifications is if the brand starts to mean something to customers again. If it can once again be proven that THX houses earn more at the box office then theatre owners will see value in it and they'll be more inclined to pursue it.
But, first, some education is going to have to happen. Customers aren't going to ask for something if they don't know what it is. Digital gives plenty of surround sound. So, for those who believe(d) that was what THX was all about, the problem is solved.
Rather than churn out another logo trailer, I'd like to see THX produce a series of shorts (about 3min each) designed to educate moviegoers on what the heck a THX Cinema really is. I think the "take home message" should be that it takes more than just THX-Certified gear to make a THX-Certified Cinema. This would go a long way toward bringing the brand back into focus.
quote:
And faking THX...YOU probably could not unless you know more about sound and designing the system than I have been able to perceive...For heaven's sake, you cut out poor defenseless Tantalum capacitors on CP200 boards!
Tom Holman has vouched for my sound skills on more than one occasion. And those capacitors had it coming. Don't get me started, Steve! They had it coming!!!
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Aaron Garman
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1470
From: Toledo, OH USA
Registered: Mar 2003
|
posted 02-24-2011 02:22 AM
What Bobby said.
I'd love to see the THX brand make a comeback in the cinema, and bring order to what I like to think of as relative chaos when one goes to the movies. As a patron now, I want to be assured that when I'm seeing a movie in a cinema, that the presentation justly represents whatever was supposed to be seen. As it stands, I never know what the hell I'm going to get, even with DCinema. Am I getting 5.1 still, or did the jackass tech forget to setup the subs? Is this 2K or 4K? Is a speaker blown? Are the center and right channels reversed? Was this movie shot on video and blown-up?
Of course, we know how stupid the average movie goer is, and they don't always seem to care about the same things we all do. I don't think it gives cinemas the right to slack on presentation, but its probably something that would not even occur to many.
THX could help solve this if they could start to beef up their branding, set some further standards pertaining to DCinema, and of course prove that branding yourself THX will make a theater owner more money.
Case and point my trip to Chicago to see Tron in IMAX. It was at Navy Pier, a 15/70 installation. The image was not as bright as I remember 15/70 being, even on the trailers, the sound was not that impressive, and overall the experience wasn't as engaging as the screenings I saw in 2K. Of course IMAX is whole other can of worms, but to me, the IMAX branding COMPLETELY failed.
THX, on the other hand, has branding that DID work for me. The first instance was in NYC at the Loewe's auditorium at Lincoln Square. I saw the Dark Knight there back in 2008, and the image was solid and the sound the best I've ever heard in the past 10 years. Loved it so much, I went and saw it again 2 days later.
I also work in a facility that has a THX cinema, and can tell you that it has made me believe in the brand more and more each time I screen something, and we screen a wide variety of content: mono, Dolby A, SR, and SRD on films as old as Metropolis and Psycho to modern fair like Iglorious Basterds and (just tonight) The Adjustment Bureau. On all occasions, excellent image and sound that suck you into the film rather than piss you off.
In other words, long live THX.
AJG
| IP: Logged
|
|
Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
|
posted 02-24-2011 08:25 PM
THX is now certifying TVs and vidprojectors -- Runco, Panasonic, JVC, etc. for home theatre. So how come they don't certify digital projectors for movie theatres? Or are they just doing home theatre, home anything nowadays (as Joe's most excellent and hilarious spoof spot says)? I guess who can blame them; it is where they can make the big bucks. I guess their CEO figures, what's more likey to make us grow -- get a cut out of certifying some 3000 digital theatre screens or get a cut of the 240,000,000 home theatre TVs video projectors and stereo gear? Not difficult to understand why they are putting their name on home theatre electronic products.
Then again, I am more confident in relying on Consumer Reports' evaluations of electronic products than looking for the THX label. Not only does CR compare a huge range of models, but to them, it doesn't matter if a brand like LG has a THX logo plastered on it or not -- they will rank it wherever it lands compared to all other makes and models in the same class, regardless of the logos and certifications or awards. Plus, they also tell you what the repair rate is for that make and model and how well it stacks up in terms of reliability. The THX cert doesn't mean diddly to me if the damn thing's failure rate is way above the mean.
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003
|
posted 02-25-2011 02:48 PM
quote: Frank Angel
Scott, are these UltraScreen locations using film or digital? 75ft is probably bigger than 35mm should be expected to fill -- especially with today's print quality. Probably right on edge of having an illumination problem too. I don't know what digital can do with 75ft. Did you find the picture bright enough on that size screen with digital?
They are a mix of digital cinema and 35mm. Illumination wasn't a huge problem, but it's probably not helped any by the fact that, in my last experience there (Iron Man 2 last summer), they've had the house lights up way too high (like they were afraid of people tripping on the stairs). I prefer it quite dark, so if they're going to have the ambient light that high, they need more light on the screen to compete.
re: THX
The education problem that THX had back in the 90's would be largely a non-issue these days with the ease of which people can find information.
A well-stocked web site with easy-to-understand language, fun trailers posted on YouTube ripe for viral spreading, with an effective marketing campaign in theaters could provide more information than people would know what to do with.
Aside from the construction issues, theaters could achieve some of the benefits of what THX tried to accomplish without THX lifting a finger. The primary problem is that there isn't a consistent way for customers to know what they're going to get when they go to a theater. The bad theaters aren't going to do anything anyway, so this is a way for good theaters to communicate to their customers that they're good and why.
A good auditorium should exhibit certain characteristics, right?
- A certain amount of light on the screen using XYZ test material and a calibrated light meter.
- Sound check - SPL metering that shows that all channels/speakers are working and are leveled correctly.
- Sound calibrated - ideally, the auditorium would be analyzed for its audio quality and treated to address problem areas
- Rattle test - any light fixtures rattling when a subwoofer sweep tone is played?
A plaque on the door going into every auditorium would display the last time that all these items have been checked, along with the name and phone number of who to contact if you discover a problem. Just like on the bathroom door at WalMart. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Give this program some fancy, marketable name, and communicate it. Put it up on your pre-show slides. Put it on your web site. Do a nifty trailer that talks up the features of this program and maybe even does a real quick IMAX-style demo. Tell people why you're better than the next guy, and they'll start to respond. You could even do customer surveys before and after to measure that response.
This would have the double benefit of having high performance auditoriums and the marketing bump that would come from educating the customers about it. It's not only a competitive advantage over nearby theaters, it would be a way to increase customer satisfaction and stem the competition from other forms of entertainment.
Any reasons why this is a bad idea?
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
|
This topic comprises 12 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
|
Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM
6.3.1.2
The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion
and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.
|
Home
Printer-friendly view of this topic