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This topic comprises 8 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
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Author
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Topic: Interstellar and fader 7
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 11-08-2014 07:01 PM
quote: Steve Guttag
As someone who has had to run world premiers at 7.0 (and any other studio screening) where the rooms where set up, not only properly, but to the studio's liking...they are WAY TOO Effin loud! I swear those guys have to be partially deaf by listing to such loud sounds all day long. I've had people bang on the booth door to turn it down while the studio guy insisted on leaving it where it was and though it sounded awesome.
That is precisely - word for word - what happened to me yesterday. The audio system was tuned by Dolby on Thursday, with 7 calibrated to a peak of 85dB of pink noise being heard by his microphones in the auditorium. We then did a technical rehearsal screening for a gala premiere yesterday morning, at which the director's representative insisted on 7 (5.3 to 5.5 sounded good to me, and I'm pretty sure would have done to our regular audience). So we cranked it up, thinking that she would immediately ask us to put it back down again. It sounded so loud that if I'd have been a customer, I'd have complained (and I tend to prefer louder movie sound than most, so much so that I tend to set fader levels for regular shows about .2 or .3 below what I would think of as ideal for me) - but she thought it sounded great and told us to play the actual shows at 7. The totally packed houses that those shows will get (tonight) will probably soften it a little bit, but when I'm in tomorrow I'll be interested to learn if there were any audience complaints.
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Lonny Jennings
Film Handler
Posts: 10
From: Boston, MA USA
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 11-09-2014 10:47 PM
It's almost 2015, are we still discussing where the fader should be? This subject was old 30 years ago. It's simple: 85dBc at 7 on the fader is never going to work. They have, do and always will mix movies too damn loud to keep the fader at this level for any rational, non-hearing impaired customer. Anyone who thinks this is correct is either misinformed, not experienced in exhibition, or thinks that turning up the level will somehow correct for a terrible movie (can anyone say; “deluded Hollywood director”?). I'm calling "Interstellar" "Backdraft 2". Those of you who've been in the biz long enough may remember that the 1991 Ron Howard pict was infamous in its time for excessive M&E's on L&R and/or insufficient dialogue level on the center channel (and you thought this was a modern problem?). Dolby & THX always had this unrealistic notion that the fader in the theatre is somehow locked in place and not subject to the preferences of the movie-going public via the projectionist. The customers are the people who ultimately pay our (and Dolby's and THX) salary.
If it's too loud for the customers then screw whoever wrote the “letter” telling you to leave the fader at 7 and set it where the level is comfortable and agreeable for most of the audience.
While I do believe that customer complaints will predominately consist of those who think it's too loud (how many times have you heard a customer asking to turn it up?) you have to go with the will of the end-user and usually this will mean turning it down.
Years ago they used to run movies on Friday nights for the employees at Dolby in the superb screening room in the San Francisco headquarters. Of course, company mantra dictated that the fader be set to 7 on the CP200. One week they ran a 35mm Dolby Digital print of “Evita”. Despite requests to turn it down they ran the whole show at 7. The result? Some Dolby employees walked out of a free, company provided screening of a just released, major motion picture. It was that loud and uncomfortable! It added new meaning to the concept of “tone deaf”.
Generally, most systems in the field are set up somewhere close to the 85dBc standard so this isn't the primary reason for the turning it down. As stated in an earlier post, it's a problem with the people mixing on the dubbing stage. At the turn of the century Dolby finally woke up and tried to address the loudness problem by introducing a product designed specifically for the dubbing stage; the Model 737 Soundtrack Loudness Meter:
http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/manuals/DOLBYMODEL737.pdf.
This unit was inserted into the feeds of the DS10 or DMU recorder. When properly calibrated it had a simple two digit display that read the level of the sound in the recording. It was somewhat more complicated than a normal SPL reading as this meter was an Leq (m) meter. This would take into account the frequency range of the signal as well as the amount of time at any level; in other words, it measured the “annoyance” level! Instead of trying to change all of the dubbing practices at once Dolby started small and tried to standardize the use of the 737 for mixing trailers and advertizements:
http://www.sawa.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/sound_in_cinema.pdf
It was hoped that this would ease the use of the Model 737 and the concept of the Leq (m) reading into the Hollywood conscience and then, later down the road, get it into the work-flow of the dubbing stages producing the soundtracks for feature films. It didn't quite happen. There was some progress with the levels on trailers (not much) but, it never went anywhere for feature soundtrack recording. So, here we are in 2014 and the movies are still too damn loud! Maybe at the turn of the next century.....
In the meantime we're stuck with movies recorded too loud and the best (and correct) thing to do is just turn down the fader until it sounds comfortable. It isn't a question of what's technically correct; it's what the customers want that matters!
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Brad Miller
Administrator
Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99
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posted 11-10-2014 12:21 AM
I believe the reason is actually more simple than that. I attribute it mostly to be nervous.
Run something at a medium fader level. Now notch it up/down 1db. You will notice that (assuming you don't have a lousy sound system) the slightly louder version sounds better. You don't need to and you shouldn't do this test at ear-splitting levels to see what I mean.
Over the course of mixing they tend to keep adding, not subtracting. When something blows up and a particular sound gets lost in the cacophony, they say "turn that sound effect up", not "turn all of that explosion noise down so I can hear that sound effect". Basically, it's always up, up, up.
By screening time it is well embedded in their heads that "louder is better", and for anyone that HAS shot a film and done a sound mix you will agree that indeed when it actually rolls for the audience, the nervousness DOES make them want to make it just a tiny bit better, and the feeling that is happening is usually by turning up the volume to "make it a little bit more impressive".
The problem is, take away the director/producer/sound mixer's stress and it's just too damn loud.
On a similar but different note though, certain speakers ARE harder to listen to at louder levels due to peaks in the high end (over 2KHz and usually around 4-6KHz). The slope of the X curve and the smoothness of that really is critical. Boosting frequencies there is a no no. Cut, don't boost. Let it be slightly not-perfect. The fader when it's all said and done will run closer to 7 without complaints. (And if you can do the EQ via parametric, all the better.)
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