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This topic comprises 8 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
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Author
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Topic: Interstellar and fader 7
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 06-13-2015 02:52 AM
quote: Carsten Kurz
There are always complaints about sound levels in cinema, but it seems IMAX is really notorious there. I guess it's part of their concept - the largest picture, the loudest sound. The idea is not to faithfully reproduce, but to impress, so people consider IMAX as 'special'. And of course it's targeted primarily at younger audiences, which tolerates higher sound levels in general (or lost their hearing already on techno raves). And it's true, IMAX local staff has no means to reduce the sound level.
I've mentioned the same right here before. Their concept, at least with the thing we now call "Xenon Digital" is to impress, not to achieve the best possible quality. It's like those parties or concerts, where the sound is far too loud and lots of flashy things are happening, which distract you from the fact that the actual product, the music, is mediocre at best.
Interstellar was just an awful mix. If you played this thing at 7.0 in a well calibrated room, you gave about 90% of your audience an unpleasant ride. I know a theater which faithfully played it at 7.0, the experience was ear shattering and just... well, stupid. It was a string of WTF moments... If that's what the director intended, then be it, but I know for sure it's not what the audience wanted.
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William Kucharski
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 244
From: Louisville, Colorado, United States of America
Registered: Oct 2012
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posted 06-15-2015 01:44 AM
quote:
@William: Think about it. You may actually think you want 'Level 7'. But you never know how loud an actual presentation has been played. I think you are right when you want a movie to be played louder. But don't insist on 'Fader 7'. You could regret it quickly. Hundreds of people (=individual human beings) sitting dispersed in a large room. You can never get it right for everyone. A single number can never express the complexity of sound-track,sound-systems, room, and individual perceptional aspects.
I want it played at the level it was designed to be played back at and was mixed for.
If the film's distributor said to play it at level 7, I want to hear it at level 7.
I recall when Twister was released there was a "warning" letter posted on the ticket booth stating that WB asked for it to be played a certain amount (I don't recall how much) over reference level.
The theater did, and it was magnificent at that volume.
Yes, I know 120 dB or louder can be very uncomfortable, but in brief bursts for effect it's fine.
If that's what the film makers intended, that's exactly what I want to experience.
I don't know if the Regal Colorado Center IMAX played Interstellar at fader 7 as instructed, but it was very loud… and very effective. Other showings I went to at other theaters where it was quieter just lacked the same impact.
Perhaps it should be advertised and left to ticket purchasers whether to view a film at the proper presentation level advised by the filmmakers or at whatever level the exhibitor feels is appropriate; to me that decision is no different than when US movie studios decided to hack up Sergio Leone's films for domestic release.
Oh, and as I mentioned, I donned ear plugs and wandered into the Ultra Sheer Dance Club located across from the AMC Westminster 24 on a Friday night and found the dance music within hitting 130+ dB with frightening regularity.
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William Kucharski
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 244
From: Louisville, Colorado, United States of America
Registered: Oct 2012
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posted 06-17-2015 11:26 PM
quote: Marco Giustini
Keywords: skilled and projectionist. That's it.
That said Interstellar was stupidly loud on Low Frequencies. I saw it in Leicester Square, it was loud as I would expect but some long and loud LF sequences were just annoying.
See, that's just it.
I trust the sound designer and director more than I do a skilled projectionist.
Add that you go on to say that you found the LF sequences just annoying… but by turning those down you've affected what the sound designer and director were shooting for just as much as if you put a colored filter over the lens because you thought the film's coloring needed warmth.
I agree that auditoriums and EQ vary which is why, once again, I miss THX theatres and TAP (though the program is still around, membership is way down as especially chains didn't see the point when they could "do it themselves" via ETX and RPX) - at least with THX reference level a THX mastered film would mean 120 dB on the soundstage should be 120 dB in the theater. (I wrote letters to the editor of the local paper when some complained the new neighborhood theater was too loud when it was THX certified, pointing out they should complain to Hollywood, not theater management, as for once the movies were being presented as intended. IMHO, if you want it adjusted from intended, watch it at home in a few months.)
That's why when I visit a real IMAX theater, I note it's loud, but I also think "finally, a theater that gets it and plays films at their proper volume level."
That kind of leads to a side question - with the brightness levels Dolby Cinema will be able to achieve with HDR, will projectionists turn down the lamp levels if they get complaints the picture is too bright - even if that's what was intended?
Were David Lean making Lawrence of Arabia today, he might well use HDR to provide light levels for desert scenes one was forced to actually wince to view in a theater to accurately portray just how bright the daytime sun is in the desert.
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 06-18-2015 10:08 AM
quote: William Kucharski
I trust the sound designer and director more than I do a skilled projectionist.
If, the next time you take a commercial flight, the pilot decides to apply full power and climb off the runway at a 70-degree angle into a thunderstorm and a howling gale, would you be fine with that, because the pilot is operating the aircraft within its on-paper specifications and in a way that (s)he is qualified to do? Would you trust the pilot more than the passengers who would feel very uncomfortable on such a flight, and would probably choose a different airline next time (after first whining to the Daily Mail about how they thought they were about to die)?
I've now met a couple of prominent Hollywood directors, and dealt with the PAs of several more. For some reason, they all seem to want movie sound played at a volume that 99% of the moviegoing public, and movie theater workers, would find somewhere between uncomfortable and distressing. For rental, festival and other gala screenings their word goes and we have to do what they say: the result is usually multiple complaints from audience members.
For the other shows, we turn it down, not because we claim to know better than the filmmakers, but because the majority of our paying customers want it that way.
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William Kucharski
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 244
From: Louisville, Colorado, United States of America
Registered: Oct 2012
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posted 06-18-2015 11:05 AM
quote: Leo Enticknap
If, the next time you take a commercial flight, the pilot decides to apply full power and climb off the runway at a 70-degree angle into a thunderstorm and a howling gale, would you be fine with that, because the pilot is operating the aircraft within its on-paper specifications and in a way that (s)he is qualified to do? Would you trust the pilot more than the passengers who would feel very uncomfortable on such a flight, and would probably choose a different airline next time (after first whining to the Daily Mail about how they thought they were about to die)?
I've now met a couple of prominent Hollywood directors, and dealt with the PAs of several more. For some reason, they all seem to want movie sound played at a volume that 99% of the moviegoing public, and movie theater workers, would find somewhere between uncomfortable and distressing. For rental, festival and other gala screenings their word goes and we have to do what they say: the result is usually multiple complaints from audience members.
Which tells you people will complain about everything.
The fact that the sound is "too loud" at galas and premieres tells you one important thing – it's supposed to be played at that level, and was designed to be played at that level.
Of course I would trust the pilot more than the professional flying a plane within its capabilities; in the case of pilots and sound designers, I trust the experts, not random people off the street.
A good chunk of the paying public wants to check their cell phones and Facebook pages during movies too; is that okay because the public wants it?
Well of course not, you might say, because they're disrupting the enjoyment of other patrons. Well that's the way I feel when the movie isn't played at the level the sound designer had intended.
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Carsten Kurz
Film God
Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009
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posted 06-18-2015 11:17 AM
William, you do not understand 'loudness' at all. A single number can not express the variations of all existing auditoriums in the world.
The sound engineers or directors do NOT mix to 7, but they mix to what they find is appropriate and catching on the sound stage. Obviously, you don't understand that what they are judging is not fader setting, but perceived loudness. 7 means nothing when it comes to perceived loudness.
I you believe a typical IMAX presentation is compliant with the sound mixers or directors intention, then you are dreaming. Aside from that, if a movie has been mixed in ATMOS, Auro 3D, 5.1 and 7.1, what do you believe is the directors original intention? Did you ever watch an ATMOS released movie in an IMAX theatre? Why?
If you'd compare the sound level of an IMAX presentation with a level 7 presentation in a non-IMAX theater, you will notice the IMAX presentation is much louder. Also, for IMAX presentations, it is not the director or film sound engineer who decides about the level, but an IMAX sound engineer. Why do you ignore the directors loudness intention for IMAX presentations?
If you think that too many movies are played too soft in general, and that playing them too soft is bad, I am with you. But to insist on 'Fader 7' is just plain stupid.
A recent SMPTE study group came to the conclusion that traditional auditorium calibration to reference level shows large variations - they went out to a lot of very different cinemas and sound stages and did comparative measurements.
Fader 7 is a rule of thumb, nothing more, nothing less. It's good to have it, but it's wrong being slaved to it.
- Carsten
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