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This topic comprises 8 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
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Author
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Topic: Let the HD DVD format wars begin...
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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 09-28-2005 01:51 AM
Speculation that Microsoft may be ready to support HD-DVD:
quote: Tom's Hardware Guide Redmond (WA) - In an exclusive interview with Tom's Hardware Guide, one of Microsoft's lead representatives on the DVD Forum Steering Committee said that decisions regarding whether his company and Intel would back and promote HD DVD as a high-definition video disc standard, were determined only within the last few days. Prior to some critical recent developments and announcements, both companies - which had proclaimed neutrality - may have been ready to back Blu-ray.
"Until now, we viewed ourselves more as a technology provider for both groups," said Jordi Ribas, Microsoft's director of technology strategy for Windows Digital Media, and a key developer of the VC-1 codec currently in use by both HD DVD and Blu-ray. He revealed that Microsoft and Intel had produced a list of what he called "key requirements for the success of next-generation DVD." For several months, while those requirements were being circulated, both companies worked on developing key standards to be implemented by both formats. Ribas said he was directly involved with implementing the VC-1 codec, and also worked jointly with Disney to produce the iHD interactive layer considered by both camps, but eventually adopted only by HD DVD (Disney is a member of the Blu-ray Disc Association.) During that time, Intel and Microsoft both maintained their public neutrality. But very recently, from the two companies' perspective, things started unraveling unexpectedly for Blu-ray.
"Our decision is based mainly on where the formats are today," Ribas said, referring to Microsoft. "A year and a half ago, both format organizations had very similar goals, and to some extent, the story of Blu-ray was actually very powerful. It had higher capacity, it had what we would consider benefits at the time. But then as time went on, and we'd seen what's the reality of both formats today, and what were promises versus what's proven and what's real, that's when we decided to make the decision."
Blu-ray failed the Intel/Microsoft test in six critical areas, Ribas told us, referring to a document listing those areas that a Microsoft spokesperson provided to Tom's Hardware Guide:
First, and perhaps foremost, is the ability for a consumer to make authorized copies of a legally obtained disc, in order to store the content on a hard drive and stream it to devices around the house. Intel particularly wants this capability for its Viiv home entertainment platform, announced last month. "We think it's a great consumer win, and it's a great industry win, to be able to ensure that with good copy protection, you can have so much functionality for the user," Rivas told us. But when recently questioned about its support for these features, Ribas said, although Blu-ray had appeared supportive at one time, its current stance is now uncommitted.
Support for hybrid discs that can be read in both current DVDs and future players, was the second critical element. This would "future-proof" new releases, enabling consumers to buy DVDs that can play in today's players, while also providing high-def content for tomorrow's. "That's something that both promised," said Ribas, "but HD DVD delivered, and Blu-ray has not - and it seems it's nowhere in sight. [Blu-ray has] claimed they have it in the lab, but to go from the lab to mass production is like night and day. There's a lot of effort that needs to happen. So as of now, there's nothing that leads us to believe that that's going to be possible [from Blu-ray] at this point."
Maintaining low production costs is a critical factor, which has been a key HD DVD talking point in light of current revelations about factory upgrade costs for Blu-ray. "For a long time, we actually thought that the Blu-ray Group had the upper hand in costs," Ribas said, mainly because of the involvement in Blu-ray of most of the major Japanese CE manufacturers - Sony, Matsushita (Panasonic), Pioneer, and Sharp - as well as Philips. Here is where recent events played a critical role: In a development that was brought to light only this morning, two of the world's leading China-based DVD player production facilities announced their support for HD DVD over Blu-ray. In press statements, these companies cited the relative openness of the DVD Forum compared to the Blu-ray Disc Association. "Now that we see China embracing HD DVD," said Ribas, "we actually see that on the cost side, HD DVD will have an advantage, because the Chinese have been the ones who have lowered the prices, via the competition, for HD DVD players." As much as 75 percent of DVD players sold in America today come from China, he added.
Maintaining low disc replication costs affects the consumer price for media, said Ribas, which would play into any price/performance evaluation. A disc production factory can make minor upgrades to its equipment, he stated, with the result being equipment that can produce both conventional DVD as well as HD DVD. Citing figures circulating this week throughout the industry, Ribas said it would cost as much as $1.7 million per production line to install Blu-ray disc production equipment, and as much as $2.0 million for each new mastering system installed. That's a significant expense, he explained, for a business which only turns over a 10 percent margin.
The surprise entry in Microsoft's and Intel's list of failures is disc storage capacity. On paper, Blu-ray appears to have the advantage. But the two companies looked beneath the paper: Capacity, said Ribas, "used to be the biggest advantage of Blu-ray, and we believed it. We thought, they'll get 50 GByte BD-ROM discs working, but it's not happening, and it's nowhere in sight. There are not even pilots. It's only in the lab that they are building these discs." With regard to demonstrated capacity, he told us, HD DVD-ROM actually leads BD-ROM by a score of 30 GByte to 25 GByte.
The final entry is interactivity standards. Although Microsoft and Disney jointly developed the iHD interactivity layer, based on XML - which is the glue that holds together the "Vista vision" of Microsoft's future Windows platform - and even though Disney is a Blu-ray proponent, the Association chose instead to endorse BDJ, an implementation of Sun-s Java Mobile Edition. Ribas told us that the major studios - either publicly or quietly - are opposed to BDJ, citing its relative complexity and its lack of compelling new features compared to iHD. An optional commentary track for videos, for example, that superimposes the speaker's image on-screen as well as providing audio, is one key iHD feature that BDJ will support only as an option, maybe. "Which means nobody will use it," said Ribas.
"Intel was looking at similar issues," said Ribas, "and [we] realized, 'We are getting very close to getting these things into the market, we have to stop hoping or expecting or believing promises. We have to look at what's real and what's not.' That's where our decision came from."
Ribas told us more about his and his company's expectations for the future of video disc technologies and interactive media in general. Stay in touch with Tom's Hardware Guide for more of our interview this afternoon with Microsoft's Jordi Ribas.
Tom's Hardware Guide has contacted the Blu-ray Disc Association early Tuesday for comment on today's developments. So far, the organization has not responded to our inquiries.
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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 09-30-2005 02:24 AM
Agreed: DVD superseded VHS as CD superseded vinyl because both (i) offered vastly improved functionality to their predecessors, and (ii) were significantly cheaper media to manufacture and distribute, once the initial R & D costs had been recovered through unit sales.
HD-DVD video is neither - it offers the same functions as DVD, but with a higher picture resolution. Not only does it have no additional core functionality, but it'll require two big hardware investments (the player and a compatible display unit) for anyone to get the benefit of it. If you have no interest in watching video images at home which are larger than a 28" telly, I can't see how you would be a potential customer for this technology.
I predict one of two possible outcomes: either HD-DVD will follow a similar path to laserdisc in the 1980s (a niche, speciality product with very expensive hardware and software that is only used by a small minority of enthusiasts), or its introduction will be very gradual. PC manufacturers will start to incorporate the drives into production models as Moore's Law makes it economical to do so, and set top players will be sold that include a facility to down-res the output for a standard NTSC or PAL TV, as well as an HD DVI output. When PAL superseded the 405-line system in Britain, it took 17 years (1968 to 1985) before the number of old sets was so low that the government thought it safe to switch off the 405-line broadcasts. Digital media (i.e. CDs and DVDs) has achieved market saturation a lot quicker so far, but I can't help wondering if with this one, the old model might start to re-emerge.
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Andy Summers
Master Film Handler
Posts: 397
From: Bournemouth Dorset United kingdom
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 10-01-2005 10:26 AM
Mitchell’
I agree with Mitchell’ it’s down side was the lack of support from the consumer and the film distributors; I was always waiting for S-VHS films to come out with blacker blacks and whiter whites with less video noise?
But what about D-Theatre D-VHS, is this based upon the technical standards that S-VHS was putting on the market, or is it many steps ahead of S-VHS?
Today S-VHS can be picked up for as little as £400.00 when they first came out in the late 1980’s they where around £850.00 there about, the S-VHS tapes where more costly than standard VHS tapes.
So what about D-VHS D-Theatre, with its ability to play six-track Dolby with split-surrounds, how does that work, I mean what does a D-VHS D-Theatre, VCR look like from the outside and inside?
The heads on the deck must have had some major alterations to make this all doable, I remember hearing around 1992 when Dolby digital the affordable costly approach and solution to 70mm film cost, was rising huge questions, is it possible to put Dolby digital onto VHS, the answer was yes, but a lot of modifications would have to done to achieve this standard.
Not soon after all this Laserdisc was offering six-track Dolby with split-surrounds, to rave reviews everywhere, and then came DTS, and the rest is history. I would never thought this possible, and thinking the exclusive six-track Dolby format would stay I the cinema with big films like “STAR TREK 6” which was the last 70mm film I saw in Lucasfilm THX sound system theatre, and Last Action Hero in a regular 70mm theatre.
Behold DVD, with classic films six tack films, lighter than a 70mm print and easy to access any part of the film, with bright colours far less video noise, blacks are blacker and whites are whiter too, it’s taken years to reach to this technical high achievement.
HD-DVD now does this mean the video line resolution is going to be greater over standard DVD with higher blacks and whites, and total robust colours that would make “David Lean” say yes now that looks far better, over what as gone before.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 10-03-2005 06:26 PM
My parents have a D-VHS player and a huge Mitsubishi HDTV set. The D-VHS movies do look very good. They have "Fight Club" both on DVD and D-VHS. The D-VHS version has a much more highly detailed image. However, the problems described of D-VHS are very real and will indeed kill the format. Not enough movies and not enough retailers stocking the few available are the biggest problems.
HD-DVD and Blu-Ray have their own big problems as well.
Intel and Microsoft are now thrusting a lot of support behind HD-DVD and spinning a lot of misinformation about Blu-Ray in the process. The thing I don't understand is why Microsoft and Intel even give a damn about the format. With Hollywood lawyers severely crippling the functions of the disc, what good will it be to average computer users?
The latest wrinkle in the brewing format war appeared yesterday. Paramount announced it will support the Blu-Ray format. Conflicting statements on DVD File and The Digital Bits websites don't make it clear if Paramount is removing support for HD-DVD. Why is Paramount suddenly changing its tune about Blu-Ray? It has to do with the extra, anti-customer features Sony is promising in the players. Blu-Ray seems to have an even tougher level of copy protection that may take the average script kiddie another minute or two to break.
I think Paramount apparently likes the idea of a movie player that has to be connected to the Internet so it can phone the studio to verify the authenticity of a disc being played. If the disc is pirated, the studio can lock down the machine. But really the whole thing is about pulling up customer data, compiling viewing habits and then having a lot of push-marketing bullshit invade your movie watching experience. Watch a certain movie and then get a bunch of spam and telemarketing phone calls for products placed in the movie you watched!
I don't think most people realize it yet. When the "Big Brother is Watching You" spectre comes true, it won't be coming from your government. It will get pushed on us by big business. These copy controlled Internet connected movie players are just one of many possible examples to develop.
There is some speculation Universal Studios will announce support for Blu-Ray. It is even possible Warner Bros, the most ardent backer of HD-DVD, may make a Blu-Ray support announcement.
Honestly, all those guys can issue out lots and lots of press releases and spout pidgeon-tech sales droid half truths. But that still doesn't guarantee many people will buy it.
My feeling is once Blu-Ray gets launched it will receive a very cool reception. A few early adopters will grab up the players. But sales levels won't snowball the way they did with DVD. It will take at least 2 to 5 years and a number of more customer friendly compromises in the player designs before people will start buying them in earnest.
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