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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Community   » The Afterlife   » Let the HD DVD format wars begin... (Page 6)

 
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Author Topic: Let the HD DVD format wars begin...
Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 08-27-2005 10:45 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
The technical details are in the AACS Pre-recorded Video Book Specification. The digital imprimatur is called a “content certificate” (see p. 5 for overview), and is created “at a secure facility operated by [the AACS organization]”
So Joe, how bout we paint a huge BULLSEYE on roof of this AACS "secure facility" and tell the terrorists..."hey guys....this is da place!"

And how's THIS for total bullshit....
quote:
Finalizing the content protection scheme is critical for the launch of blue laser optical disc technology, and new protection schemes should allow for increased consumer flexibility while better protecting prerecorded content compared to current DVD technology."

They want to control the world because it's better for us consumers....I guess the idea is, if they can make us pay over and over again for the same shitty movie, then that makes us better CONSUMERS. May these bastards never get another erection and if they take viagra, it'll make their nuts explode.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
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 - posted 09-28-2005 01:51 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Speculation that Microsoft may be ready to support HD-DVD:

quote: Tom's Hardware Guide
Redmond (WA) - In an exclusive interview with Tom's Hardware Guide, one of Microsoft's lead representatives on the DVD Forum Steering Committee said that decisions regarding whether his company and Intel would back and promote HD DVD as a high-definition video disc standard, were determined only within the last few days. Prior to some critical recent developments and announcements, both companies - which had proclaimed neutrality - may have been ready to back Blu-ray.

"Until now, we viewed ourselves more as a technology provider for both groups," said Jordi Ribas, Microsoft's director of technology strategy for Windows Digital Media, and a key developer of the VC-1 codec currently in use by both HD DVD and Blu-ray. He revealed that Microsoft and Intel had produced a list of what he called "key requirements for the success of next-generation DVD." For several months, while those requirements were being circulated, both companies worked on developing key standards to be implemented by both formats. Ribas said he was directly involved with implementing the VC-1 codec, and also worked jointly with Disney to produce the iHD interactive layer considered by both camps, but eventually adopted only by HD DVD (Disney is a member of the Blu-ray Disc Association.) During that time, Intel and Microsoft both maintained their public neutrality. But very recently, from the two companies' perspective, things started unraveling unexpectedly for Blu-ray.

"Our decision is based mainly on where the formats are today," Ribas said, referring to Microsoft. "A year and a half ago, both format organizations had very similar goals, and to some extent, the story of Blu-ray was actually very powerful. It had higher capacity, it had what we would consider benefits at the time. But then as time went on, and we'd seen what's the reality of both formats today, and what were promises versus what's proven and what's real, that's when we decided to make the decision."

Blu-ray failed the Intel/Microsoft test in six critical areas, Ribas told us, referring to a document listing those areas that a Microsoft spokesperson provided to Tom's Hardware Guide:

First, and perhaps foremost, is the ability for a consumer to make authorized copies of a legally obtained disc, in order to store the content on a hard drive and stream it to devices around the house. Intel particularly wants this capability for its Viiv home entertainment platform, announced last month. "We think it's a great consumer win, and it's a great industry win, to be able to ensure that with good copy protection, you can have so much functionality for the user," Rivas told us. But when recently questioned about its support for these features, Ribas said, although Blu-ray had appeared supportive at one time, its current stance is now uncommitted.

Support for hybrid discs that can be read in both current DVDs and future players, was the second critical element. This would "future-proof" new releases, enabling consumers to buy DVDs that can play in today's players, while also providing high-def content for tomorrow's. "That's something that both promised," said Ribas, "but HD DVD delivered, and Blu-ray has not - and it seems it's nowhere in sight. [Blu-ray has] claimed they have it in the lab, but to go from the lab to mass production is like night and day. There's a lot of effort that needs to happen. So as of now, there's nothing that leads us to believe that that's going to be possible [from Blu-ray] at this point."

Maintaining low production costs is a critical factor, which has been a key HD DVD talking point in light of current revelations about factory upgrade costs for Blu-ray. "For a long time, we actually thought that the Blu-ray Group had the upper hand in costs," Ribas said, mainly because of the involvement in Blu-ray of most of the major Japanese CE manufacturers - Sony, Matsushita (Panasonic), Pioneer, and Sharp - as well as Philips. Here is where recent events played a critical role: In a development that was brought to light only this morning, two of the world's leading China-based DVD player production facilities announced their support for HD DVD over Blu-ray. In press statements, these companies cited the relative openness of the DVD Forum compared to the Blu-ray Disc Association. "Now that we see China embracing HD DVD," said Ribas, "we actually see that on the cost side, HD DVD will have an advantage, because the Chinese have been the ones who have lowered the prices, via the competition, for HD DVD players." As much as 75 percent of DVD players sold in America today come from China, he added.

Maintaining low disc replication costs affects the consumer price for media, said Ribas, which would play into any price/performance evaluation. A disc production factory can make minor upgrades to its equipment, he stated, with the result being equipment that can produce both conventional DVD as well as HD DVD. Citing figures circulating this week throughout the industry, Ribas said it would cost as much as $1.7 million per production line to install Blu-ray disc production equipment, and as much as $2.0 million for each new mastering system installed. That's a significant expense, he explained, for a business which only turns over a 10 percent margin.

The surprise entry in Microsoft's and Intel's list of failures is disc storage capacity. On paper, Blu-ray appears to have the advantage. But the two companies looked beneath the paper: Capacity, said Ribas, "used to be the biggest advantage of Blu-ray, and we believed it. We thought, they'll get 50 GByte BD-ROM discs working, but it's not happening, and it's nowhere in sight. There are not even pilots. It's only in the lab that they are building these discs." With regard to demonstrated capacity, he told us, HD DVD-ROM actually leads BD-ROM by a score of 30 GByte to 25 GByte.

The final entry is interactivity standards. Although Microsoft and Disney jointly developed the iHD interactivity layer, based on XML - which is the glue that holds together the "Vista vision" of Microsoft's future Windows platform - and even though Disney is a Blu-ray proponent, the Association chose instead to endorse BDJ, an implementation of Sun-s Java Mobile Edition. Ribas told us that the major studios - either publicly or quietly - are opposed to BDJ, citing its relative complexity and its lack of compelling new features compared to iHD. An optional commentary track for videos, for example, that superimposes the speaker's image on-screen as well as providing audio, is one key iHD feature that BDJ will support only as an option, maybe. "Which means nobody will use it," said Ribas.

"Intel was looking at similar issues," said Ribas, "and [we] realized, 'We are getting very close to getting these things into the market, we have to stop hoping or expecting or believing promises. We have to look at what's real and what's not.' That's where our decision came from."

Ribas told us more about his and his company's expectations for the future of video disc technologies and interactive media in general. Stay in touch with Tom's Hardware Guide for more of our interview this afternoon with Microsoft's Jordi Ribas.

Tom's Hardware Guide has contacted the Blu-ray Disc Association early Tuesday for comment on today's developments. So far, the organization has not responded to our inquiries.


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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

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 - posted 09-28-2005 04:48 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Speculation? The DO support it. Officially.

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Andy Summers
Master Film Handler

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From: Bournemouth Dorset United kingdom
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 - posted 09-28-2005 06:08 AM      Profile for Andy Summers         Edit/Delete Post 
Question, when is HD-DVD coming out in the USA and more importantly when the United Kingdom. [beer]

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

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From: Lawton, OK, USA
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 - posted 09-28-2005 06:27 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Considering all the copy protection measures deployed, that will in effect screw most folks who already own a HDTV set, I think a different question has to be asked.

The pertinent question is who will give a fart about HD-DVD or Blu-Ray at all? I don't. Not in the present form of either format. If Hollywood insists on requiring HDMI or HDCP compliant DVI to pass through a HD quality video image, then both HD-DVD and Blu Ray will have little appeal. The vast majority of HDTV sets in the marketplace have no ability to do what Hollywood wants. In essence, all those HD set owners would be better off saving their money and sticking with the DVD players they already own.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

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 - posted 09-28-2005 06:46 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's a good question, but even without all of the extra BS, the question still exists. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for most people to upgrade from DVDs. None. The moneymen out there think people will flock to this like they did to DVD. I wish I was stupid so I could make a ton of money.

Oh, and somehow high-bandwidth HD images are far more piratable than SD images. That's why no analog non-HDCP for you!!! You cannot be trusted. Nobody will pirate SD. Ever! Bow to the brilliance of this decision. I still urge people to fight back.

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Leo Enticknap
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 - posted 09-30-2005 02:24 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Agreed: DVD superseded VHS as CD superseded vinyl because both (i) offered vastly improved functionality to their predecessors, and (ii) were significantly cheaper media to manufacture and distribute, once the initial R & D costs had been recovered through unit sales.

HD-DVD video is neither - it offers the same functions as DVD, but with a higher picture resolution. Not only does it have no additional core functionality, but it'll require two big hardware investments (the player and a compatible display unit) for anyone to get the benefit of it. If you have no interest in watching video images at home which are larger than a 28" telly, I can't see how you would be a potential customer for this technology.

I predict one of two possible outcomes: either HD-DVD will follow a similar path to laserdisc in the 1980s (a niche, speciality product with very expensive hardware and software that is only used by a small minority of enthusiasts), or its introduction will be very gradual. PC manufacturers will start to incorporate the drives into production models as Moore's Law makes it economical to do so, and set top players will be sold that include a facility to down-res the output for a standard NTSC or PAL TV, as well as an HD DVI output. When PAL superseded the 405-line system in Britain, it took 17 years (1968 to 1985) before the number of old sets was so low that the government thought it safe to switch off the 405-line broadcasts. Digital media (i.e. CDs and DVDs) has achieved market saturation a lot quicker so far, but I can't help wondering if with this one, the old model might start to re-emerge.

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Mitchell Dvoskin
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 - posted 09-30-2005 12:59 PM      Profile for Mitchell Dvoskin   Email Mitchell Dvoskin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If the majority of the public was interested in picture resolution, S-VHS would have been a successful product.

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Andy Summers
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From: Bournemouth Dorset United kingdom
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 - posted 10-01-2005 10:26 AM      Profile for Andy Summers         Edit/Delete Post 
Mitchell’

I agree with Mitchell’ it’s down side was the lack of support from the consumer and the film distributors; I was always waiting for S-VHS films to come out with blacker blacks and whiter whites with less video noise?

But what about D-Theatre D-VHS, is this based upon the technical standards that S-VHS was putting on the market, or is it many steps ahead of S-VHS?

Today S-VHS can be picked up for as little as £400.00 when they first came out in the late 1980’s they where around £850.00 there about, the S-VHS tapes where more costly than standard VHS tapes.

So what about D-VHS D-Theatre, with its ability to play six-track Dolby with split-surrounds, how does that work, I mean what does a D-VHS D-Theatre, VCR look like from the outside and inside?

The heads on the deck must have had some major alterations to make this all doable, I remember hearing around 1992 when Dolby digital the affordable costly approach and solution to 70mm film cost, was rising huge questions, is it possible to put Dolby digital onto VHS, the answer was yes, but a lot of modifications would have to done to achieve this standard.

Not soon after all this Laserdisc was offering six-track Dolby with split-surrounds, to rave reviews everywhere, and then came DTS, and the rest is history.

I would never thought this possible, and thinking the exclusive six-track Dolby format would stay I the cinema with big films like “STAR TREK 6” which was the last 70mm film I saw in Lucasfilm THX sound system theatre, and Last Action Hero in a regular 70mm theatre.

Behold DVD, with classic films six tack films, lighter than a 70mm print and easy to access any part of the film, with bright colours far less video noise, blacks are blacker and whites are whiter too, it’s taken years to reach to this technical high achievement.

HD-DVD now does this mean the video line resolution is going to be greater over standard DVD with higher blacks and whites, and total robust colours that would make “David Lean” say yes now that looks far better, over what as gone before.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

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 - posted 10-01-2005 02:04 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
D-VHS is HDTV. If it's not a dead format yet, it will be very, very soon. It has lots of reported problems. Plus, tapes suck anyway. I don't recommend storing anything on tapes. They degrade over time, even if you store them properly. Discs can be duped easily. I have HDTV but decided to pass on D-VHS because I could see the lack of long-life potential with the product, plus the fact that hardly anyone supports it. I know one guy on the entire planet with a D-VHS and he doesn't even have HDTV.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

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 - posted 10-03-2005 06:26 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My parents have a D-VHS player and a huge Mitsubishi HDTV set. The D-VHS movies do look very good. They have "Fight Club" both on DVD and D-VHS. The D-VHS version has a much more highly detailed image. However, the problems described of D-VHS are very real and will indeed kill the format. Not enough movies and not enough retailers stocking the few available are the biggest problems.

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray have their own big problems as well.

Intel and Microsoft are now thrusting a lot of support behind HD-DVD and spinning a lot of misinformation about Blu-Ray in the process. The thing I don't understand is why Microsoft and Intel even give a damn about the format. With Hollywood lawyers severely crippling the functions of the disc, what good will it be to average computer users?

The latest wrinkle in the brewing format war appeared yesterday. Paramount announced it will support the Blu-Ray format. Conflicting statements on DVD File and The Digital Bits websites don't make it clear if Paramount is removing support for HD-DVD. Why is Paramount suddenly changing its tune about Blu-Ray? It has to do with the extra, anti-customer features Sony is promising in the players. Blu-Ray seems to have an even tougher level of copy protection that may take the average script kiddie another minute or two to break.

I think Paramount apparently likes the idea of a movie player that has to be connected to the Internet so it can phone the studio to verify the authenticity of a disc being played. If the disc is pirated, the studio can lock down the machine. But really the whole thing is about pulling up customer data, compiling viewing habits and then having a lot of push-marketing bullshit invade your movie watching experience. Watch a certain movie and then get a bunch of spam and telemarketing phone calls for products placed in the movie you watched!

I don't think most people realize it yet. When the "Big Brother is Watching You" spectre comes true, it won't be coming from your government. It will get pushed on us by big business. These copy controlled Internet connected movie players are just one of many possible examples to develop.

There is some speculation Universal Studios will announce support for Blu-Ray. It is even possible Warner Bros, the most ardent backer of HD-DVD, may make a Blu-Ray support announcement.

Honestly, all those guys can issue out lots and lots of press releases and spout pidgeon-tech sales droid half truths. But that still doesn't guarantee many people will buy it.

My feeling is once Blu-Ray gets launched it will receive a very cool reception. A few early adopters will grab up the players. But sales levels won't snowball the way they did with DVD. It will take at least 2 to 5 years and a number of more customer friendly compromises in the player designs before people will start buying them in earnest.

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Leo Enticknap
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 - posted 10-04-2005 02:11 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Bobby Henderson
I think Paramount apparently likes the idea of a movie player that has to be connected to the Internet so it can phone the studio to verify the authenticity of a disc being played.
Well if that's the way they're going, Blu-Ray is a dead format walking: especially if its rival doesn't have that requirement. At the moment, the only item of hardware in a typical home that has an Internet connection is a PC. 'Phones might follow suit if VOIP takes off, but big infrastructural changes to your typical suburban house or flat will be needed if we're going to get to the point at which all manner of domestic appliances operate online. And once consumers realise that the connectivity is all about spam and anti-piracy, they'll turn to the rival format for which this isn't an issue. Has Sony forgotten that restrictive product licensing was effectively what killed Betamax?

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David Stambaugh
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 - posted 10-04-2005 02:12 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Leo Enticknap
Has Sony forgotten that restrictive product licensing was effectively what killed Betamax?
Do you mean Sony's refusal to grant licenses to competing companies to manufacture Beta machines? That was certainly part of the problem. But if I remember correctly, the VHS format had longer recording time going for it as well.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

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From: Lawton, OK, USA
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 - posted 10-04-2005 02:28 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think Sony is counting on the perceived copy protection paranoia from Hollywood studios to allow such strict product licensing to survive.

And I say perceived copy protection paranoia because I don't think the studios really care about that. They know the bulk of all film piracy happens when a movie is in theatrical release, not once it hits home video. The studios are just throwing up this copy protection argument as a sly ploy of misdirection. Their ultimate goal is to bring back a DiVX style DVD player. The suits in Hollywood want viewers ponying up dollars every time they insert a disc. If a Blu-Ray player requires an Internet connection to authenticate or activate movies then the pay per view thing can be introduced in a rather stealthy manner.

Anyway, just about every Hollywood studio wants what they call "more revenue streams" and a pay per view style DVD player is one of the easiest, most obvious methods they see. They know the public won't like it. But if the studios unite on that standard and just keep bullshitting us about myths on film piracy they might be able to force it onto the public anyway.

Blu-Ray's possibly mandatory broadband Internet connection is also a huge gamble from the simple fact most computer users still don't have any kind of broadband access. Electronics companies and Hollywood studios automatically think anyone who has HDTV will also have DSL or cable modem service. That's simply not true. My parents have a great HDTV setup. But they live just a little too far outside Colorado Springs to have any high speed Internet service. You also have to consider the great number of people within reach of high speed Internet service, but still don't want to pay extra for it. There's a lot of people who don't even have an Internet account at all. Lots of people have ditched their home telephone lines and have only a cell phone.

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Leo Enticknap
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From: Loma Linda, CA
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 - posted 10-04-2005 02:42 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: David Stambaugh
Do you mean Sony's refusal to grant licenses to competing companies to manufacture Beta machines?
Both that and charging a levy per unit on every cassette manufactured by a third party. JVC either charged no levy at all for blank VHS cassettes or a much lower one - I can't remember which.

quote: David Stambaugh
But if I remember correctly, the VHS format had longer recording time going for it as well.
Initially, but that was also piracy paranoia. Betamax was aggressively marketed as a timeshifting device from day 1, whereas VHS was primarily marketed as a means for watching rented films. A lot of the first generation of VHS models were playback-only machines which didn't have a tuner in them, but the tapes ran for three hours; whereas to start with, Betamax tapes were limited to an hour in length in order to quell Hollywood fears that the system would be used by consumers to record and permanently keep off air film broadcasts. When it became clear that the concept of a VCR which could be used for timeshifting or watching rental movies but not both was limiting sales (just as the lack of a recording facility limited laserdisc sales throughout the format's supported lifetime), VHS machines began to incorporate a record facility and tuner, while Sony licensed the manufacture of three-hour Betamax cassettes.

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