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Author
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Topic: Anyone consuming HD or Blu-ray?
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 12-18-2006 01:35 PM
quote: Frank Angel
WHAT?!! Can someone elaborate on THIS? Is this just another form of the studios still wanting to regulate what they've already sold you?
I'm kind of surprised you didn't come across any of my previous posts where I angrily griped about that subject.
To elaborate: the new HD disc formats have the capability of using the Image Constraint Token, which is a part of the High Definition Copy Protection (HDCP) system.
HDCP is why a lot of newer TVs and other consumer electronics devices have incorporated digital HDMI connections. The "5C" HDCP copy protection flags can be dovetailed into the digital audio or digital video bit streams that travel from one device to another on those HDMI cables.
Hollywood and its army of attorneys are all worried that customers will make high quality dubs of HD movies by copying the signal that comes off the analog component video cables. If the Image Constraint Token is applied, then quality on component video cables would be no better than a standard 480p DVD.
So far, very few (if any) releases on HD-DVD and Blu-Ray have utilized the Image Constraint Token. The studios haven't resorted to using it yet since much of the installed base of HDTV sets don't have any HDMI connections. Many don't even have a HDCP compliant DVI output either. Basically if they applied the ICT to a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray release then a few million potential customers (all of them early adopters of HDTV) would be adversely affected. And then the studios would have a lot of pissed off customers.
I happen to think the whole HDCP "5C" thing, and its Image Constraint Token, is all a big ruse. Hollywood knows most movie piracy occurs when the movie is in theatrical release, not when legit movie discs hit store shelves. I think HDCP is an item that will lay the ground work for bringing back DiVX style pay per view models. The studios want you to buy that disc, but also want you to pay a little more each time you watch it.
That's also why these players are building in some Internet connectivity. The players need to phone home and tell big corporate brother about your disc watching habits and charge up your credit card account accordingly.
The original public stated intention about these connections was so a disc bought at the store could be authenticated before it would be allowed to play. Due to negative public reaction about this the studios have backed away from using that sort of thing. Currently none of the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players hitting the marketplace require an Internet connection in order to play the movie discs.
Sony says its Blu-Ray player internet connection is there mainly to utilize BD-Java features that may be built into some Blu-Ray releases. There may be some special online zones one can access from features on the movie disc. However, that internet connection gives Sony a hell of a lot of potential control over your player. If the disc activation/authentication system was used as originally intended, Sony would have the ability to completely lock up your Blu-Ray disc player if an illegal disc was inserted. The Hollywood studios were all for that, but I think Sony had some sobering second thoughts.
I guess we'll see what happens with this HDCP stuff in the long run. There's a good chance it may just disappear from future equipment. With so many different forms of entertainment out there, Hollywood might end up bending over backwards trying to gain any decent attention for its products. One thing's certain: they'll lose lots of customers by making their HD products too damned complicated and restrictive to use.
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Ron Keillor
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 166
From: Vancouver, B.C. Canada
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 12-25-2006 12:56 AM
I'm waiting to see who adopts EVD -
China relaunches EVD, death to DVDs?
www.infoworld.com/article/06/12/15/HNchinadvdrivalformat_1.html
China readies DVD rival format
Chinese DVD player makers plan to switch to EVD to avoid paying patent royalties on DVD format
Electronics manufacturers in China may be gearing up for another attempt to establish a proprietary optical disc format, although some analysts said such a move is unlikely to succeed.
The DVD player makers plan to switch to EVD (enhanced versatile disc) in an attempt to avoid paying patent royalties on the DVD format, according to published reports. The world's largest producers of DVD players, Chinese electronics companies would use the format instead of standards such as MPEG-4.
Last week, 20 top manufacturers including Haier announced their plans to switch from DVD to EVD entirely by 2008, according to a report in China Economic News.
Getting foreign entertainment companies to adopt the new standard would be an uphill battle, however. China has attempted to introduce its own standards before, including S-VCD (Super Video Compact Disc) in the mid-1990s, and its own advanced telecommunications standard, TD-SCDMA. Both faced foreign resistance and a lack of broad support even within China.
The move is most likely an attempt at reducing the royalties, according to industry observers. Chinese DVD manufacturers first made a push with EVD in 2003, but months later no players had appeared on the market in China or abroad. Consumer acceptance of an entirely new format will be difficult in both China and overseas.
"Unless Chinese DVD manufacturers are prepared to sacrifice the global market and the Chinese market to manufacturers in India and elsewhere, they cannot afford to make a wholesale shift to EVD production at this time," David Wolf, chief executive officer, Wolf Group Asia. "For that reason, it's unlikely to take place."
Kristian Kender, editor of China Media Monitor, a Beijing-based industry publication, said: "It'll be pretty hard on a global scale, because the DVD format is so entrenched. On the other hand, they can make a good argument that it makes it much harder to pirate material."
"It will be difficult for them to get international firms to come on board, but the Chinese DVD market is so huge on its own that even if this standard is not adopted outside of China, the home market is enough to support the rollout."
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Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002
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posted 12-29-2006 07:33 PM
quote: Bobby Henderson
If any device in the home theater setup has HDMI 1.1 connections, then true 1080p is impossible. Same goes for delivery of Dolby True HD 5.1 signals.
I was in a Sony Style store today and I asked specifically whether one could get 1080p out of the HDMI port on Sony's Blu-Ray player and into Sony's 1080p LCD set at 1080p and they swore it would do so. I said that I had read that this would not be possible until HDMI 1.3. The staffer said he didn't know about the different HDMI versions but that I could definitely get 1080p. I then asked him to confirm that the player didn't actually convert the 1080p to 1080i, into the set at 1080i and then the set uprezed to 1080p and he said it wasn't doing that.
So does the latest Sony hardware use HDMI 1.3 or was he woefully misinformed?
The other thing I've read recently is that not a single HD or BluRay DVD released to date has 5.1 True HD. Most just have Dolby Digital Plus and the ones that have True HD only have it in 2-channel. What's the story on that?
Also, according to an article in The Perfect Vision magazine, there needs to be a handshake between devices using HDMI. The devices then revert to the lowest common denominator of performance. But the handshaking requires a 5v/55mA power supply. Apparently, some manufacturers are taking shortcuts and using that power supply to power peripherals and once the power gets cut, sometimes the handshaking doesn't work. If it doesn't work, you get no picture (or no sound). Pro installers are apparently wiring both the HDMI and the component video ports in case this happens, but that kind of misses the point: the whole point of HDMI was to reduce cable clutter.
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Mike Schindler
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1039
From: Oak Park, IL, USA
Registered: Jun 2002
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posted 12-30-2006 10:18 AM
Martin,
I don't know about all the various incarnations of HDMI, but on my Samsung Blu-ray player, it takes a 1080i signal and deinterlaces it in the player, then sends out a 1080p signal to the TV. I can confirm that it actually is a 1080p signal, because that's what my projector recognizes it as. From what I understand, the Sony is even better, because it actually sends out the true 1080p signal from the disc without having to deinterlace it.
quote: Martin Brooks
The other thing I've read recently is that not a single HD or BluRay DVD released to date has 5.1 True HD. Most just have Dolby Digital Plus and the ones that have True HD only have it in 2-channel. What's the story on that?
Again, I'm not 100% sure on this, but my understanding is that there are plenty of discs with 5.1 True HD. The 2-channel thing came in when Toshiba originally released their HD DVD player. It was only capable of 2-channel True HD playback. But a firmware update has since made 5.1 possible on those machines. Also, a lot of Blu-ray discs have uncompressed PCM tracks. I think THE DESCENT is the first disc to be released with a 6.1 PCM track.
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Mark J. Marshall
Film God
Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 01-11-2007 08:57 AM
Sooo the latest things in this format war are not only a dual format player, but also a dual format disk. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) How the heck does THAT work??
Well, apparently, according to the guys over at the digital bits, the new disk does work. It even works in the dual format player. Imagine that. All this so Warner Brothers can continue to produce disks that satisfy both formats, but now they don't have to produce two different disks to do it.
I have to admit, I saw the dual format player coming, assuming someone could get the licensing from both parties that allowed them to do it. I never expected a dual format disk.
Read more about it here, but be warned, this link points to the latest article, so soon it won't point to this one. Here's the text:
quote:
Well... I have to tell you I was highly skeptical going into Warner's Total Hi Definition (THD) press event last night. I still think the success of Total HD is going to depend on the studio being able to match performance with promises. But if they can... color me impressed.
As expected, Day Three of CES was capped off by a lavish evening reception and press event at the Bellagio in Las Vegas, where Warner Home Video announced the introduction of a new hybrid high-definition disc... the Total HD. Attending the event with me (among the many industry observers on hand) were Ed Peters of DVD Review, Chris Chiarella from Home Theater Magazine and Shane Buettner from Ultimate AV. I think it's fair to say that all of us were skeptical of Warner's announcement, based on what we expected going in. But that began to change when certain things were revealed at the event.
Here's the nitty gritty: Warner's THD disc will appear at retail starting in the second half of 2007. The discs will contain both an HD-DVD component and a Blu-ray Disc component on the same disc, and the movie and extras content will be exactly the same on each. No price was announced, but WHV president Ron Sanders claims that while he thinks consumers would be willing to "pay a little more" for the security of having a disc that's format war proof, the price "won't be very much more than current HD-DVDs and Blu-ray Discs." He also added that, "We're looking at this thing to consolidate SKU counts - Warner will only release in THD once we get up and running." Warner's senior vice president for marketing management, Steve Nickerson, actually demonstrated on stage a test THD disc containing clips from Superman Returns in both an HD-DVD player, a Blu-ray Disc player and LG's new Super Multi Blue combo player, and it worked perfectly in each (the Super Multi Blue player defaulted to Blu-ray in the demonstration). Surprisingly (though this remains to be proven), Nickerson claimed that each format on the disc will be "full capacity", meaning that you can include both single layer and dual layers for BOTH formats (either 15 or 30GB on the HD-DVD side and 25 or 50GB on the Blu-ray side). We believe THDs will include the different formats on either side of the disc.
Here's the even bigger surprise: Representatives of both New Line and HBO were on hand at the event... and they pledged to begin supporting THD in 2007. New Line's Steve Einhorn commented, "We plan to completely support THD specifically. This will move our schedule ahead considerably." In response to a question from the audience as to whether this means New Line will release the Lord of the Rings films in THD, he added that the studio was "working on it now", that the titles were "high on their agenda" and that they were "looking at the right time and venue" for the release.
Kevin Tsujihara, president of the Warner Home Entertainment Group, also indicated that THD "wasn't done to create a new revenue stream for Warner." Rather they did this as a solution to retailers and consumers in response to the format war. Licensing fees will not be paid to Warner for THD - they're paid instead to the HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc groups just as they would be for releases on either of those formats. Nickerson also added that the replication costs aren't that much higher than regular high-def discs. It was also revealed that the replication equipment to create THD discs is the same as is used to create regular HD-DVDs and Blu-ray Discs, so any replicator with both can produce THDs.
Tsujihara and Sanders produced statistics that they believe support their THD efforts, including that 49% of all consumers surveyed said they would be more likely to adopt high-definition on disc given the choice of THD. They cited projections indicating that there will be 55 million HDTV households in 2007, and 80 million by the end of 2008. They also cited HD-DVD Promotion Group numbers indicating that 2.5 million HD-DVD capable devices will be in homes in 2007, while the Blu-ray Disc Association claims that 6.2 million Blu-ray capable devices will arrive in homes in 2007 (numbers for both formats include game systems). Added to the 775,000 high def players (of both formats) that are reportedly already in homes, that makes a whopping 9 million high def players by the end of 2007... and THDs will work in all of them, regardless of format. By comparison, at the end of DVD's first year, only 1.9 million players were in consumers' homes - a sign (they believe) that the adoption of high-definition discs could be even bigger than DVD.
Like I said, it still remains to be seen if Warner can pull this off technically. With multiple layers and two formats on each disc, there's the potential for compatibility problems. One also wonders if other studios would support it (Tsujihara claims other studios are "evaluating" the format). But just the fact that THD brings New Line into the high-def fray alone is a big deal. As Warner admits, even if THD is only a temporary solution for consumers in the format war... it will still help to pull those consumers in from the sidelines sooner. And if it ultimately turns out that either Blu-ray or HD-DVD wins the format war... those consumers will still have THD discs that work on the winning format's hardware.
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