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Author
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Topic: Carmike installing 2300 Christie/AIX DLP systems
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Ky Boyd
Hey I'm #23
Posts: 314
From: Santa Rosa, CA, USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 11-10-2007 01:07 AM
Wow, I had no idea my "review" would stir up such a hornets nest of activity. To chime back in on the discussion, let me give you a bit more information. When I wrote my earlier post, I hadn't looked up Martian Child, the feature I actually paid to see, to see what the proper ratio should be. Turns out its flat. Well at the Carmike 10 in Great Falls, MT it lookd much more like a scope film in terms of the proprotions of the image, but the faces weren't flattened out like if you projected flat film through a scope lens. This is probably something about d-cinema I don't understand since I've not worked with it. But the scope shaped image did not fill the scope screen. The masking was set to flat before the show and when the presentation started it opened to flat. By the way, this was a common height room rather than a common width room. Michael Clayton, which I had previously seen on film in another theatre, and is a scope film was presented on what appeared to be a flat screen in a scope ratio. Because I was dropping in for the last couple of scenes and didn't stay through the credits, I have no idea if this was common width or common height room, but I suspect common width in the case of this small auditorium. So maybe they just didn't adjust the masking properly in that case, but I don't think so.
I will say that the management or at least the manager of the 4 employees working that night (1 box, 1 conc, 1 door/usher, and presumably 1 projection) was not doing his or her job at all as far as I could tell. The doorman had 3 friends hanging out with him at the chomper station and during my pre-show self-guided tour, I came out of an auditorium just as one of the friends leaped up and kicked the ceiling hung hallway exit sign sending one of the two exit panels to the floor. I don't put up with the friends at work bs with my crew and had I witnessed that I would have had no qualms about firing the kid who was on the payroll. Nobody was doing theatre checks and there were plenty or ripped chairs and ripped walls in this complex. For something that was built in the last six years, for it to already need renovation in terms of new seating and wall treatments is, to me, a demonstration of an appalling lack of care on the part of the local and district management.
As for the Installers vs. the theatre level staff debate as to who is at fault here, I'm staying out of it except to say this: When Carmike is taking 1/4" on the top of their directory ad to trumpet that they've gone digital, I believe they are attempting to say to the ticket-buying public that this theatre's presentation is state of the art. So when Joe and Jill moviegoer shell out their $16 to $20 (depending on the market) and they witness this substandard presentation it makes an impression. And if that impression is negative then we are all in trouble. With more entertainment options available, we as theatre operators, employees, etc. need to give our customers a reason to see movies in the theatres. As the only theatre in Great Falls, MT, this Carmike is doing our industry a huge disservice. I will report the problems I experienced to Carmike, Christie and Access IT since based on what has been said here, they will pay attention.
As to the ice cream question...I was referring to Dibs, or Hagaan-daaz or any kind of ice cream bar. We sell plenty of them in my theatre as does every other theatre I've ever visited in Northern California. In fact all the theatres in Great Falls, back when they were Carish Theatres (all now since closed by Carmike with the opening of the 10 plex) had ice cream. I was just in the mood for ice cream that night and thought it was weird.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 11-10-2007 12:29 PM
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Well, I haven't seen that you've actually figured anything out yet. In fact you've shown more lack of real knowledge here than anything else.
Oh yeah, Mark. It's all easy. Show up at a 20+ year old location on Monday sight unseen. Get eight or so systems wired up, networked and running with whatever audio booth rack is in place and have the setup playing digital movies perfectly by Thursday evening in time for the theater to be showing movies in D-cinema by Friday. It's a cakewalk! No problem with that. No need to go back and "mop up" anything either. Just make a beeline for the next location in that group of 2300 screens!
I watched our local Carmike theater get built from the ground up in 1994. The theater opened in mid-December of 1994, but had all the hardware in the booth several weeks ahead of time. I saw it myself (our company did all the neon work in the building -which was a big pain due to those bronze mirrors and studs not marked correctly on the building plans). I met the people who wired everything together. They were there for more than just a Monday-Thursday period. The people who originally set up the booth gear had weeks to do it, on and off, and they still missed a few things. The two original DTS systems were set up incorrectly, despite being in THX certified auditoriums. Months later, when the theater finally started getting DTS discs for movies like Braveheart the speaker systems were doing crazy shit. I called people at DTS and management at Carmike to actually get the problem solved -rather than just whine about how "Carmike sucks."
I have seen several other theaters in my region get built and granted visits to the booths at various stages on construction. I don't install projection systems for a living, but I've seen enough of the process enough times over the years to know it's something that doesn't just happen real fast. But the Chrisie/AIX crews are expected to do just that and repeat that feat for a huge number of locations?
quote: David Zylstra
But let's back up here a second, I am the customer who is paying a HUGE premium per screen for the install to get done - the fact that the install crews are overloaded is NOT my problem, why should I accept a partial job because their company as a whole is committed to a near unrealistic time frame?
Maybe turn-around time is something to be considered before buying the gear. There are other digital cinema providers besides Christie/AIX.
OTOH, I haven't heard any complaints about Christie/AIX installations in other theater chains, such as RAVE, etc. The situation with Carmike may be unique due to the larger number of installations.
Ultimately, blame for bad presentation quality always comes down on some level of theater management. They're there on site. They can see the problems themselves. If they are not detail-oriented enough to figure out a 'scope movie shouldn't be playing letterboxed on a masked to flat screen then they really should not be running a movie theater.
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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster
Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 11-11-2007 02:32 PM
quote: Bobby Henderson
Get eight or so systems wired up, networked and running with whatever audio booth rack is in place and have the setup playing digital movies perfectly by Thursday evening in time for the theater to be showing movies in D-cinema by Friday.
Actually Bobby,
That IS how its being done... almost, but not just by one guy. A crew goes in and each does their job, working sometimes very early or late hours... sometimes both. One handles tearing out the automation, in this case replacing it with an NA-10, another will handle unpacking and another assembling the projectors themselves and wiring them in... yet another may handle the tweeking end of things. Some of the work is done ahead of time and installing new sound processors if needed and all networking, placement of new racks could all be done weather or not the existing film projectors are going to be kept in place. Other techs do other aspects of the job, and don't forget that these systems can be run stand alone just fine until the show library install is attended to..... That can be done while all the systems are running. In fact I've seen an 8 screen conversion done in a week with just three people and this included the show library. First to go was the sound processors... CP650's were installed in each auditorium the week before the actual digital conversion. Networking wiring was also installed during this week.
The next week I assisted them... pulling out projectors three at a time and getting them out of the booth... and three D-Cinema booths a day or day and a half were brought up and on line. Then three more... than two more. It was all done by the end of the week. In fact only a couple of shows need be missed in any given auditorium if done on a time line that everyone knows before hand. If a new piecce of gear doesn't work out of the box you borrow a board or what ever fomr the last to be installed.... hence there is enough time to get a replacement in before you get to it. A smaller 35mm projector from another location was re-installed in the largest theater in the plex at the very end of the job.
Indeed, it IS that easy!
All in all I've seen a number of the AIX installs and I think they do a masterful job considering the crap locations they had to start with.
On our upcomming installs I don't expect to spend even a full day on each one since all the gear will have been assembled and tested before hand in our shop anmd all needed projector macros have been created.. we just edit the new locations settings into them. All we need do is place it, wire it, size the image and do the masking. Then shoot the color and go saving all that in each macro. About two hours tops for all that.
Mark
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Tristan Lane
Master Film Handler
Posts: 444
From: Nampa, Idaho
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 11-11-2007 03:41 PM
From my experience this is how the procedure was handled with Christie/AIX in regards to installs:
The site was surveyed for equipment placement, additional electrical needs, and overall work needed to prep for the digital install.
Weeks prior to the crew arriving, the equipment would already be on site. Equipment racks were shipped early, placed, and wired up. The networking cable was ran and terminated. The LMS and associated core networking components were installed as well. All of this work was normally done by a 3rd party.
The Christie crew would arrive. There would also be an electrician on site to disconnect the 35mm equipment, and provide the connections to the digital projectors. 35mm equipment was pushed aside (if not being left in place as some screens were). Switches, servers, and pennywise were racked. Automation, sound, and server connections were all made. Lenses and lamps were installed and the system was then aligned and tested. Many of the cables used to connect the components were pre-made and reduced install time.
Perhaps in the early stages of the Carmike rollout the TSI crew was rushed. This is not the case now. The work I have seen and serviced when I was a CSE-(area tech) was overall acceptable. There was little left do, and if there was an issue with the installation quality, it is up to the area CSE to point those items out and request they be fixed. In order for the TSI crew to be signed off on the job, the CSE must deem all work acceptable. Therefore if the installation was not perfect, the responsibility was left up to the CSE to determine and address with the installers. The later sites I serviced all had very clean work. Cables were dressed, projectors properly placed, and the site was left clean afterwards.
The early installs were notably different, and the quality varied greatly depending on the crew. These were the very early installations, but overall quality on the work after those was very good.
In regards to the CA21:
quote:
Christie/Doremi should have come up with some other type of automation interface like the NA-10 that has no human interface except at the server!!
Actually - there is full functionality and control built into the Doremi to select macros, control projector functions, ect... These have existed for a few years now. Doremi projector setup allows you to select what brand of projector you are using, and then creates a cue set based on your selection. All commands are sent over the network to the control portion of the projector.
Why aren't they there on Christie AIX locations? Well some are. But the problem seems to be that not all of the cues from the Doremi Cinelister program were added to the AccessIT TCC interface.
The pennywise was chosen because it could be adapted to many different sites, and could serve as a standalone automation as well. There still is the issue that a human must select the proper picture format on the DCA21, but this could easily be eliminated by adding all picture format cues to the TCC. If running a show in Cinelister, you are able to specify any of the 16 available macros (by number). Within the TCC, there is only choices for flat/scope/ and now preshow.
In essence, the DCA21 is very similar to the NA-10 in regards to capabilities and functionality.
The Dolby Server has it's drawbacks as well. Current software only allows you to control lamp and douser. There are also NO dry contact outputs on a dolby server. The GPIO is handled via an NA-10. Meaning: You must have an NA-10 in almost any install where dry contacts are needed.
Doremi has 8 input and 8 outputs allowing you to provide utility contacts. Current Cristie/AIX installs use one output to advance the cue line on the DCA21. They also use 1 input for show start, and 1 input for preshow (if used)
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David Zylstra
Master Film Handler
Posts: 432
From: Novi, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2007
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posted 11-11-2007 04:06 PM
quote: Bobby Henderson
Show up at a 20+ year old location on Monday sight unseen. Get eight or so systems wired up, networked and running with whatever audio booth rack is in place and have the setup playing digital movies perfectly by Thursday evening in time for the theater to be showing movies in D-cinema by Friday. It's a cakewalk! No problem with that. No need to go back and "mop up" anything either.
This is why they do site surveys - i.e. measure screen sizes, throws, catalog sound equipment, etc; the theatre then has a list of items to complete before the install can begin (i.e. exhaust upgrades if necessary, electrical feeds for dual systems, coordinate network install, etc).
quote: Bobby Henderson
Maybe turn-around time is something to be considered before buying the gear. There are other digital cinema providers besides Christie/AIX.
Unfortunately 2 years ago they were the only ones committing to 100% conversions (and pushing for them), the other integrators were still in their beta test phase.
quote: Bobby Henderson
OTOH, I haven't heard any complaints about Christie/AIX installations in other theater chains, such as RAVE, etc. The situation with Carmike may be unique due to the larger number of installations.
The only complaints I have are minor details that would not have been issues if I was on board at the time and able to work with the installers (the issues are minor booth operational items on how the automations are tied into our systems). No complaints here with the outcome of the final flat/scope pictures.
quote: Bobby Henderson
I called people at DTS and management at Carmike to actually get the problem solved -rather than just whine about how "Carmike sucks."
I actually forwarded the noticed issues to the people I know over at Christie and they were going to have the tech responsible for that location stop by to check everything out.
quote: Bobby Henderson
I don't install projection systems for a living, but I've seen enough of the process enough times over the years to know it's something that doesn't just happen real fast. But the Chrisie/AIX crews are expected to do just that and repeat that feat for a huge number of locations?
New installs are different than an equipment swap - a lot of time is wasted waiting for other trades to finish so you can complete the next task, with a swap you are replacing equipment and the only time spent waiting is when you take a break.
If you've seen installs go in then imagine replacing the 35mm lamphouse/projector/automation with a digital one - same time to wire, less time to aim and size the screens; replace the platter with the screen server - same time involved making it work with the projector as assembling and aligning; replace any automation addressing/networking and interlock roller setup with the TMS system and making it work . . . . . . basically with digital there are "near same time" trade offs on the install . . . . . yes, more complex on how the internals operate and repairs are done, but as time goes by everyone will learn to adapt (much like upgrades to xenon lamphouses, platters, stereo, digital sound, etc were learned).
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 11-11-2007 07:52 PM
No, I would say that start to finish, the digital installations are faster...there is just less to do on an item for item basis. As for repairs, again, film systems are as complex as digital...no one is getting down to the component level on a digital projector...they are assembly or module changers. You know, if you have an intermittent go down on a projector, you are down unless your service company has a spare or has the parts to rebuild on the spot (most full service companies can do both)...this may not be the case yet on DCinema machines due to cost of keeping a light engine on the shelf or spare modules but we recently had a folding mirror (a mirror that simply redirects the light) crack...while we did not have the parts in stock by any stretch, we did have dichroic mirror...we cut out the orignal, cut a piece of mirror and RTVed a mirror to the orignal frame....aligned same, recolor balanced and whola...back in business. If you are in the business of fixing things, you adapt to what it is you are working on. It is entirely possible that there will be depots that will have necessary modules stratigically placed around the country or that they will be priced such that a service company can stock those modules much the same way we stock projector parts, platter parts...etc. You add up the cost of stocking parts for film projectors and you will find that a decently stocked company will have many thousands of dollars on the shelf if not 10s of thousands of dollars...just like if you had DCinema parts on the shelf.
Steve
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