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Topic: Carmike installing 2300 Christie/AIX DLP systems
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David Zylstra
Master Film Handler
Posts: 432
From: Novi, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2007
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posted 11-08-2007 07:53 PM
quote: Bobby Henderson
You might want to walk a mile in their shoes before saying that.
I have a good raport with several of the Christie TSIs and I know the pressure they are under, and I have been on my share of 35mm installs as well as watched closely what is involved in setting the digitals up - in comparison a 35mm job includes enough items that make it equal or more work than a digital conversion. Knowing what I pay for a 35mm install compared to the up front costs paid to Christie I would say the job better be done when the installers leave (as I said before Christie charges 3-4 times what I normally expect to pay for a full 35mm install)
quote: Bobby Henderson
No. That's because you're making an overly simplistic apples to oranges comparison.
I may be, but if I paid for a job to be done why should it be left undone just because they have to move on to the next customer.
quote: Bobby Henderson
Christie's tech people installed and setup the first RealD system here in Lawton and installed the hardware in October for the 2nd and 3rd systems. I don't know who installed the silver screens. Management was coached through doing the final setup on those systems since available techs were spread elsewhere, such as New Mexico for the Allen Theaters conversion project now getting underway.
Christie has 3 groups of techs I know of - TSIs who do the installs, CSEs that do service and another group doing 35mm service - In my area the CSEs have done the RealD installs for existing screens so there was no labor taken away from install to do these.
quote: Bobby Henderson
You should be able to control the screen masking from the DCA21
You can, but the new cues allow you to directly control the projector format from the DoReMi -- the issue is that you can run the DCA21 in a flat program with the DoReMi having a cue for scope and the masking will close to flat but the projector will be projecting scope.
quote: Bobby Henderson
The Real D system can be a little finicky with cues.
The macro cues and the latest upgrade cures this - basically the entire show is run in the 3D format (a 48fps cue puts the DoReMi in 48fps mode as well as converts the colorspace to the one used by 3D, then the 3Dflatorscope cue changes the projector to the 3D input).
quote: Dustin Mitchell
there is a cue named 'start 1.85 show' and one named 'start 2.35 show' but in reality there is no difference-
We had this same issue with the 3D cue - there are 2 things that restrict this 1) the DoReMi needs to know the IP address of the projector/TPC and 2) the TPC needs to be set to not need a password for network access - I've had both issues and had to have the NOC or local CSEs fix.
I do think the fault for the issue mentioned is uncaring/unknowledgeable staff - I don't think the installers would have left with that many issues. It very well could be that the theatre ran some DVDs or other content with an improperly set up scaler and had to adjust the lens to fill the screen - then they forgot to put it back to normal (it's happened to us a few times)
quote: Steve Guttag
What is the big difference (beside color scheme) between the CA21 and the DCA21? Is there any special serial or Ethernet connections it has? Or are the buttons just labeled a bit different to correspond to the needs of DCinema?
I have not seen a CA21 in person, but the DCA21 has cues specific to the CP2000 and DoReMi (i.e. buttons for server start, CP2000 standby, etc).
I apologize for the long post.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 11-08-2007 10:13 PM
quote: David Zylstra
I have a good raport with several of the Christie TSIs and I know the pressure they are under, and I have been on my share of 35mm installs as well as watched closely what is involved in setting the digitals up - in comparison a 35mm job includes enough items that make it equal or more work than a digital conversion.
Baloney. A 35mm film projection setup is not as complicated -which is one reason why "film done wrong" is so anger inspiring. That doesn't mean 35mm is inferior. Film still has better potential of presentation quality and is still waaay better than video in terms of image quality for the filmmaking process. 35mm just doesn't require as much hardware in the booth and doesn't place as high a price tag on the hardware going into the booth.
Good rapport with Christie employees does not translate at all into actual working experience as a Christie employee -certainly not one trying to get anywhere from 8 to 20 digital cinema systems up and running and all networked to each other inside of a mere handful of days. Let's not leave out the task of retaining 35mm capability alongside D-cinema on 2 or more screens and getting both formats to work together with the same booth equipment. I certainly don't underestimate the technical issues I fully expected those crews to encounter with the smallest market theaters in the Carmike chain, some of which are pretty old and likely deserving of a hit from the wrecking ball.
I, too, agree the 2 year deadline on getting all 2300 systems installed is unreasonable. Christie/AIX got close to 95% of the systems installed in the 2 years that have passed. Very few full price/first run Carmike locations have 35mm only. Most of the remaining unconverted screens are discount first run and 2nd run locations. Hopefully Christie/AIX isn't incurring some kind of penalty over the last few installations going kinda slow.
My own judgment on the situation in Great Falls, MT depends on how long that digital installation has been in place and how long those presentation problems have existed without Christie and AccessIT knowing about them.
Just from my own conversations with the managers of our local Carmike theater, I have the impression Christie and AccessIT are very open to calls from theater locations in need of technical help. When the digital systems in Lawton went operational the staff got lots of "how are things running?" style phone calls from Christie/AIX.
With that stated, if the Carmike theater in Great Falls, MT has been allowing this situation to persist for any significant length of time, then the blame comes down onto the shoulders of that theater's management. They're not doing the very simple act of getting on the phone with Christie/AIX to discuss the problems and get them solved.
This is also another reason why I believe "movie checkers" should be responsible for more than just checking to see if the right TV commercials are loaded on the front of the movie. They should be checking for presentation problems too (and let management and tech people know about it). If they can get a counter person fired for forgetting just once to "upsell" more popcorn and stuff then those checkers ought to be doing something positive for their paycheck to balance out that mess.
quote: David Zylstra
Christie has 3 groups of techs I know of - TSIs who do the installs, CSEs that do service and another group doing 35mm service - In my area the CSEs have done the RealD installs for existing screens so there was no labor taken away from install to do these.
The folks in those three groups all sounds like they're employed by Christie. Not a different technical services company. When you said "local techs" it sounded like you saying some people employed by someone else did the Real D installations.
quote: Steve Guttag
So you are telling me...if you had crappy staff ruining film presentations before, the crappy staff will ruin digital presentations? I guess they still can't scratch the digital movies at least. This does sorta debunk that digital=pefect shows for the masses.
Nothing is going to be "perfect" or "idiot proof" until it has the simplicity of a Fisher Price DVD Player.
quote: David Zylstra
The macro cues and the latest upgrade cures this - basically the entire show is run in the 3D format (a 48fps cue puts the DoReMi in 48fps mode as well as converts the colorspace to the one used by 3D, then the 3Dflatorscope cue changes the projector to the 3D input).
That's likely how our local Carmike is handling it now. I know I didn't see any bright green screen when Real D kicked in for The Nightmare Before Christmas. I'm looking forward to Beowulf.
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Tristan Lane
Master Film Handler
Posts: 444
From: Nampa, Idaho
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 11-09-2007 12:19 AM
quote: Bobby Henderson
A 35mm film projection setup isn't quite as complicated as one of these d-cinema setups
Geezus, Bobby.
This statement shows just how little experience you have in the theater industry.
There is a lot more prep, alignment, and tuning involved with a 35mm install than there ever will be with digital cinema. In order to achieve proper lighting, aspect ratio, and picture quality, one must make many adjustments to console tilt, lens alignment, and aperture filing. It is not some simple set-it-and-forget-it affair. Not to mention, analog sound optics must be aligned, platters and guidance hardware aligned, etc.. What the hell gave you the idea that it was easier and quicker?
On the other side of the coin:
I've seen some current installs where the digital projector was simply set in front of the port window, with no attention paid to proper projection angle. It was wheeled into place, default presentation values were used, and the lens adjustment was the only thing relied upon to center the image. Finally, the image was cropped to meet the current masking stops. All of these shortcuts still afforded a decent image.
To cut an aperture plate right, you must spend time making it perfect. Digital cropping takes less than a few minutes and gives you a "hard edge" image line.
I'm not condoning the shortcuts that were done by the installers in these places, but the simple fact remains that if similar steps were avoided in a 35mm install, the presentation would be crap.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 11-09-2007 02:54 PM
Installation time is a different issue. What I was talking about in terms of complexity in a digital cinema setup is the extra pieces of equipment that must be installed, the fact they must all be networked together and that they must all be doing more tasks than a 35mm projector is designed to manage. Of course, there's the HUGE price difference between 35mm as well.
What about if something breaks? There's a significant difference between when something breaks with 35mm and when something goes bad in d-cinema. A good booth operator may be able to take care of a problem with a 35mm projector on his own -even replacing the parts himself. If something goes on the fritz in a d-cinema setup, you'll have to punt and call someone else. With d-cinema there's a lot more stuff that can (and probably eventually will) break.
The differences between 35mm and digital projection have me thinking about the differences between an old muscle car and one of these new cars loaded with computer chips and all sorts of other shit. It isn't easy to work on an old Mustang, but you can do all sorts of repair and modification work on an old pony car yourself if you want to put forth the effort. Most new cars have to be hooked up to a computer system and have all sort of other complicated crap going on that you don't dare touch unless you are really familiar with the hardware and have access to that proprietary gear at the dealership.
quote: Tristan Lane
There is a lot more prep, alignment, and tuning involved with a 35mm install than there ever will be with digital cinema.
No one is trying to cram an entire multiplex worth of film projector installations inside a mere handful of days and expect everything to be running perfectly either -much less try to do that in an old movie theater that wasn't even designed to accommodate surround sound.
And that kind of gets back to the crux of the argument: some folks seem to believe the Christie/AIX guys are screwing off on the job or something not to have everything just absolutely freaking perfect in the short amount of time they're given to do a complete d-cinema installation for an entire multiplex.
And, no, I don't have to have any experience installing 35mm film projectors or d-cinema projectors to figure that out. The situation is simple enough for anyone with any lick of sense to figure out.
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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster
Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 11-09-2007 10:11 PM
quote:
What I was talking about in terms of complexity in a digital cinema setup is the extra pieces of equipment that must be installed that must be installed, the fact they must all be networked together and that they must all be doing more tasks than a 35mm projector is designed to manage.
Not necessarily true.... What extra equipment? Digital booths can be in fact more void of equipment than any basic film booth I've been in. No automation, no rewind bench, no splicer, no MUT, no pre-show projector,no Film cleaner, no Film Guard, no digital readers and on and on. I will say this the platter is replaced by the server and with the projector its a one for one swap out. There may be an automation interface if you need it but overall Digital booths can be very void of gear for the most part and much less noisy. Also not all the equipment has to be networked but many locations are for ease of show transfer and monitoring operations remotely. The average booth operator has no knowledge that most of that even exists. On another note no digital booths have to be networked together at all and there is only one ethernet link and 2-HD-SDI links (BNC) between the server and projector required in many stand alone systems. If you have an NA-10 interface then another ethernet link between the server and NA-10 is needed... but you an have a plex full of these stand alone systems and still run them very effectively.
Another fallicy, There is no huge price difference any longer. The new generation of D-Cinema projectors have brought the price down to the level as if you were installing a good all Kinotonn Booth. Extended warranties are available at least from Christie for theor projectors for quite a reasonable price.
quote: Bobby Henderson
What about if something breaks?
You fix it just like any other broken piece. There are alot of built in diagnostics and other ways to check status of a projector or server and their sub systems either through the operating screens or through laptop software. Most locations are going to have multiple machines so a substitute of parts is quick and easy.
I obtained a copy of the Land Rover software and can check the systems in my Land Rover.... approximately 6 computers not counting cruise all operate ojna balanced line called a CAN System. Its easy and pretty accurate too. Computer diagnostics keep your repair bills lower and the high tech systems on board many of these cars either help allow you to breathe by cuttinng emmissions or some computer sub systems may save your life at some point... antilock brakes.
quote: Bobby Henderson
And that kind of gets back to the crux of the argument: some folks seem to believe the Christie/AIX guys are screwing off on the job or something not to have everything just absolutely freaking perfect in the short amount of time they're given to do a complete d-cinema installation for an entire multiplex.
The only folks with the answer to that are the Christie AIX Guys. You should e-mail them and ask them... not speculate on this site about what they do. In fact our crews get some time to screw around on installs. Everyone needs a break fomr the rigors of the job during the job at some point.
quote: Bobby Henderson
And, no, I don't have to have any experience installing 35mm film projectors or d-cinema projectors to figure that out. The situation is simple enough for anyone with any lick of sense to figure out.
Well, I haven't seen that you've actually figured anything out yet. In fact you've shown more lack of real knowledge here than anything else. You ought to pay that Carmike location in Montana a visit then let us know the real truth, I'm tired of your speculation.
Mark
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