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Topic: Dolby's new sound system

Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 04-27-2012 12:55 AM

quote: Manny Knowles
Oh look -- he disagrees with me AGAIN.

I'm not on your Christmas Letter mailing list. I get it. And, trust me, I'm not offended.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I wasn't at all considering who I was disagreeing with, no matter what you might think on the matter.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 04-27-2012 04:57 AM

quote:
Mike Blakesley
There is a separate Atmos component. Nobody ever said anything about having to install new servers, in fact they specifically stated the Atmos system is installed on top of what you already have and will use as much of your existing equipment as possible.

Oh, Dolby DID say it. Read the PDFs. The Atmos mix is delivered on the DCP harddisc and is transfered from the DCI server to the Atmos processor through Ethernet. But probably Dolby simply assumes that anyone with Atmos ambitions will have a Dolby server installed anyway. Or Dolby will license this feature to other server manufacturers like they did with Dolby 3D.

- Carsten

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 04-27-2012 05:12 AM

quote: Manny Knowles
BTW, any Sound Effects Editor who re-used the same 10 punches over and over (in one film) wouldn't stay working for very long.

He might if he didn't advertise it. That'd be pretty much the only way that the majority of people would even notice or care about the punching sounds.

quote: Manny Knowles
At USC, we couldn't even get away with that on our STUDENT films.

That's because student films are usually fairly pretentious. Each sound must tell it's own story, have it's own life, loves and personality. It's own hopes and dreams. In slow motion and with shitty music. Plus, the instructor will look at your timeline and that's how he'll find out.

quote: Manny Knowles
Traditionally, a body hit (like a punch) is a combination of various elements. An actual punch doesn't sound anything like what you hear in a movie.

Common knowledge. Sounds like a baseball bat hitting wet leather handing on a punching bag to me. A real punch sounds more like a blunt slap. I should know. I've punched people cuz I'm tuff.

quote: Manny Knowles
It's highly constructed and a lot of thought goes into EACH hit.

Yes, I imagine the thought process is one of "How unrealistic can we make this sound?" I imagine they do the same thing if someone is knocking on a door. "This knock must sound completely different than the knock that just happened because here we should assume that the middle knuckle applied 1/60,465th less PSI than the previous knock and using the same exact knock sound as we did for the one that occurred not even a quarter of a second ago would just be unprofessional and ruin the entire scene."

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 04-27-2012 05:49 AM

Reusing foley sounds in the same feature is recognized even by uneducated audience. It's hilarious. I have seen/heard it in comedies.
It is certainly possible to a certain extent with unspecific sounds like rain or traffic (but beware of the reoccuring horn).

- Carsten

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 04-27-2012 09:12 AM

I hear audio elements re-used ALL THE TIME in movies.

The Wilhelm scream is practically a tradition in sound design, thanks to movies like Star Wars. There's a certain black girl scream sound effect I've heard used in numerous TV shows, commercials and movies.

The TV station where I worked in Georgia had a few sound effects CDs. I've heard the fart, bone-crunching hit and .357 Magnum sound effects from that disc used lots of times.

Speaking of gun shots sounds, this is something movies aren't often good at portraying. They usually go for some canned effect, like the 40 year old Dirty Harry .44 magnum sound. Or they'll have something totally unrealistic -like the pistol sounds in Terminator 2: Judgment Day. At any rate, it's rare to hear a movie do a good job with gun sounds. Heat was pretty good.

I have two barrels for my SigSauer P226 (.357 Sig and .40 S&W). The two calibers have a very similar sounding, very loud "pop" when fired. Except the .357 Sig caliber is noticeably louder and has a bit of a super-sonic "crack" layered on top of the "pop". Fire one .357 Sig round without hearing protection and you'll probably have the cotton in the ears sensation. If you're firing the pistol or are nearby you might feel a little bit of a sub-bass style thump from air getting pushed from the gunfire.

I can't think of a single movie that has ever portrayed the gunfire sound from a suppressed pistol correctly. One reason is the true sound is pretty underwhelming. The main thing you hear is the metallic "clack" from the pistol slide recoiling back and a little bit of a puff from the report out of the barrel. What do movies do? Just re-use that James Bond silencer effect. Wrong.

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Martin McCaffery
Film God

Posts: 2481
From: Montgomery, AL
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-27-2012 09:24 AM

Jeez, suddenly we want movies to sound "real"?

Pretty sure for the last 80+ years they've been telling us what sounds real and we've believed it. We all know what a light saber sounds like, right? Suspension of disbelief is more important than reality.

I did some foley work on a Corman movie once (Slumber Party Massacre). I have no idea what a drill going through a body really sounds like, but the combination of blender, grapefruit and 2x4 makes a pretty convincing noise (also totally screws the blender).

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 04-27-2012 10:39 AM

I'd like certain sounds effects, things that I know are supposed to sound a certain way, not sound fake. A hell of a lot of people own handguns and know how real gun shots sound. Quite a bit different than how movies portray it.

A fictional object, like a light saber? Sound designers can do whatever they want to it. Just make it sound convincing. I've never seen a real life T-Rex, but Gary Rydstrom did a pretty decent job on the T-Rex sounds in Jurassic Park -although some of the tiger and elephant sounds he layered into certain bits stood out.

Obviously some productions are going to be limited on budget and time constraints. They won't be able to go out and carefully record the true sound a certain object shown in a movie really makes. But some things are pretty obvious. Handguns fitted with suppressors? There ought to be plenty of accurate stock sounds of that kind of gun fire. But there isn't.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 04-27-2012 12:51 PM

quote: Carsten Kurz
But probably Dolby simply assumes that anyone with Atmos ambitions will have a Dolby server installed anyway. Or Dolby will license this feature to other server manufacturers like they did with Dolby 3D.

I guarantee you the Atmos system will become the defacto standard. It won't happen in the next year or two, but it will happen. This is how movies SHOULD have been mixed for years, but until now the technology has never been there.

My guess is that it will be noticeably more expensive if used with a different server, and not all servers will be technically ABLE to play it back either. Remember the price of Atmos will drop noticeably in the next few years just like digital sound for movies did. The Dolby server is in my opinion the best server out there anyway for all sorts of reasons (from an uptime perspective alone their hardware raid with 4 drive system cannot be beat) but at least with the Dolby server there is no concern for compatibility no Atmos. [thumbsup]

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 04-27-2012 04:53 PM

quote: Carsten Kurz
Reusing foley sounds in the same feature is recognized even by uneducated audience. It's hilarious. I have seen/heard it in comedies.

That's intentional, they're supposed to be recognized in that scenario, obviously. But with the same canned (not foley) punch sounds and gunshots re-used not only in the same movie but thousands of different movies they get away with it. People may recognize it but the sound mixers don't get fired as Manny would suggest.

quote: Brad Miller
This is how movies SHOULD have been mixed for years, but until now the technology has never been there.

Yeah it has. Videogames, man! The only thing special Atmos is doing is on the output level. It just needs well-written software to tell it how to output given any particular auditorium's shape and configuration. Videogame systems do that, they're just scalable from mono to 7.1, not 64.0. But the whole "storing each sound element individually and placing it where it needs to go when called for" thing has been done for nearly two decades. Not new. Not cutting edge. Just new to the movie industry.

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Chuck McGregor
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Bremen, ME, USA
Registered: Mar 2012

posted 04-28-2012 02:19 PM

Try more than 3 decades:

I post this only as a point of reference as to the most advanced technology available for multi-channel sound for large audiences. In comparison, what’s been said about the Atmos system concept is not very impressive.

This system described below was designed prior to 1980 for live stage productions and as such had to work dynamically in real time. It has only been installed in a few places but gives an idea of the concepts used in live theater over 30 years ago.

These systems have been enormously upgraded and improved with today’s digital technology. One such system today provides coincident aural/visual localization of multiple live performers moving variously across a 300 foot x 100 ft stage to all seats in a 5,000+ seat outdoor venue. It should be obvious that the sound field for each seating location (in truth small areas of seating) must 1) be different for each performer, 2) different for each seating location, and 3) all this must change for each seating location in real time as multiple actors move across and/or up/down stage.

Indoor systems can do even more interesting localization feats and prerecorded effects are treated similarly. Here’s the general description of the original 1980 system taken from the paper cited below. I apologize for the rather opaque grammar as this is from a translation of the original German.

A Sound Delay System for Large Multipurpose Halls
Steinke, Gerhard
Rundfunk-und-Fernsehtechnisches Zentralamt, Berlin, German Democratic Republic
AES Convention: 65 (February 1980) Paper Number:1599

“A new sound system ( "Delta-Stereophony System”) is described which works so that coincidence of optical and acoustical directional impressions can be assured and which overcomes the shortcomings of other methods (as intensity stereophony etc.). [= “just panning” as Manny noted is all the Atmos system apparently does for localization]

“The stage/action area is divided in a number of segments we call "source sections." In each individual source section the original signals are picked up in normal way with one or more microphones and mixed, processed, amplified so, that for each source section a summarized signal resuits [much like an Atmos sound object]. The different sum signals feed a special delay system. The delay system works such that at any auditory place [listener] the sequence of the sound signals coming from that loudspeaker group which has the shortest distance from the connection line between listener place and original sound source arrives earlier than the sound of all the other loudspeaker groups, but nevertheless later than the sound of the concerning original source.

“With that method we get the security, that the original sound source can be localized according to the law of the first wave front. Beside the directional distribution also the distance impression is maintained. Furthermore at each place of the auditory [each seat] a good loudness balance exists because each loudspeaker group radiates a sum signal derived from the individual source signals with equal amplitude parts for the concerned auditory part. In cases where the sound sources have to move over the stage, for soloists, etc., the source signal feeds special directional regulators, which connect the concerning source sum signal to the different delay channels. The ceiling groups are connected to that localization delay system so that all the delay times are correct.”

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 04-29-2012 07:39 PM

http://www.dcinematoday.com/dc/pr.aspx?newsID=2804

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Kortrijk, Belgium—Apr 27, 2012
Rapid Market Adoption for Barco’s 3D Cinema Audio Format

Barco, a global leader in digital cinema technology, is proud to announce that Barco’s Auro 11.1 3D sound format for cinemas continues to be installed at leading exhibitors around the world. Recently, Cinema City International and Blitz Cinestar have selected Auro 11.1 as their preferred cinema sound format which creates the most immersive cinema experience available for moviegoers.

Content providers such as Lucasfilm Ltd., Bad Robot Productions and Jerry Bruckheimer are supporting Auro 11.1, the next-generation cinema audio format.

Leading cinema sound format
As Barco’s digital cinema customers recognize the need for a premium audio experience in cinemas, they will equip more than 100 screens with Auro 11.1 sound technology. Leading exhibitors such as Cinema City International and Blitz Cinestar have selected Auro 11.1, making it the leading premium cinema sound format worldwide.

New possibilities in storytelling
“Auro 11.1 allows the creative forces behind today’s most successful films to envelop audiences in rich realistic sound for a more compelling motion picture experience. It opens up new possibilities in storytelling by using tools that are specifically developed for the existing production workflows. This makes mass adoption easy and affordable. The result is the ability to create more realistic soundtracks which greatly enhance the overall movie experience,” comments Brian Claypool, Senior Director Strategic Business Development at Barco. “With a steady slate of titles coming from our partners, Auro 11.1 continues to provide exhibition with the most immersive 3D sound experience at the most economically viable price.”

Commitment to the industry
“Barco is highly committed to offering the digital cinema industry the most comprehensive suite of products and solutions to create a premium movie experience,” says Wim Buyens, Senior Vice President of Barco's Entertainment Division. “We are very proud that Auro 11.1 is quickly gaining traction with leading exhibitors worldwide and that it is supported by industry icons such as Lucasfilm Ltd., Bad Robot Productions and Jerry Bruckheimer.”

3D sound
Developed by Auro Technologies and powered by Barco, Auro 11.1 turns conventional cinema audio into a fully immersive 3D sound experience, with three levels of sound coming from all around and above the listener. Auro 11.1 is designed along three spatial axes (width, depth and height) rather than the two axes of traditional surround sound. As the Auro 11.1 sound technology is fully compatible with existing formats, only a minimal hardware and installation investment is required to upgrade from traditional 5.1 to Auro 11.1.

About Auro Technologies
Auro Technologies (www.auro-3d.com; www.auro-technologies.com) is a spin-off of the Galaxy Studios Group and owner of the Auro-3D® Technology Suite. The Auro-3D® system has been designed by Wilfried Van Baelen, founder of Galaxy Studios, which is renowned worldwide for its state-of-the-art leadership in audio innovation for music and film sound. The Auro-3D® suite offers ground-breaking, easy-to-use and unprecedented levels of sound reproduction capabilities to the professional, automotive, broadcast and consumer electronics (such as gaming, smart phones, multimedia PC, notebooks, tablets, audio players, digital TV, media libraries and packaged media) markets.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 04-29-2012 09:08 PM

Um, am I missing something or does Barco actually have a specific list of movie titles that are mixed in a 11.1 channel discrete audio format to make use of their new sound system.

Or is Barco just going to artificially inflate a standard 5.1 LPCM audio track to 11.1 with the usual DSP tricks (like what has been done in home theater for a long time already)?

With Dolby Atmos, there's at least some kind of promise of new movie titles with sound beds being specifically authored for the Atmos format. I can get excited about that.

I refuse to get excited about a "11.1" channel sound system unless the movie being played on it is specifically mixed to take advantage of it. 5.1 blown up to 11.1 is still really only 5.1. Just bigger. Kind of like taking a low resolution JPEG and fake uprezzing it in Photoshop for large format printing output. The uprezzing doesn't work. A small turd just gets turned into a bigger more blurry turd.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 04-30-2012 06:09 AM

Two things:

1) Yes, Barco's 11.1 is a format with specific authoring and there are movies, with Red Tails being the first, being mixed in the format.

2) This is a thread on Dolby's format, I believe there are other threads with Barco's format. They probably should not be co-mingled.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 04-30-2012 06:52 AM

There is nothing wrong about mentioning the competition when a discussion tends to ignore the fact that there IS competition. More channels/higher numbers doesn't mean market dominance.

Each system has it's specific advantages and disadvantages.

- Carsten

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 04-30-2012 08:56 AM

What is the channel configuration of Barco's 11.1? They made some really crappy projectors last I used them. Just awful. Any home television set made after 1985 that could tune in a stable picture and was decently adjusted was far better and I say that without exaggeration. I can't imagine the same people doing anything decent with sound. It's like Dolby making 3D or servers or something, or maybe Mitsubishi making electronics or perhaps Ford being a cell phone carrier. Does not compute. If their sound is anything like their projectors were, then it's going to be very blurry/muffled and sound very, very cheap. Plus, the name "Barco" sounds like a waste disposal company.

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