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Author
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Topic: Hurricane Katrina
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Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 09-05-2005 02:28 PM
quote: William Hooper
Because they're all being kept out by FEMA, for reasons nobody can get out of them. FEMA is now under the Department of Homeland Security.
Who is being kept out by FEMA (government wise)? Not buses, as tens of thousands have been evacuated by bus already... What took so log was finding the buses and getting them there, as the mayor and the state did not have the forsight to use the ones they had - rather they were destroyed in the storm.
quote: William Hooper
There has since been after the mayor of New Orleans told the feds to "get off their asses" ONE 7-car Amtrak train run on 9/2 to Lafayette LA.
I would say this is largely due to track damage. There are numerous photos on the net of debris and derailed trains blocking the track. Honestly, do you think that the storm which destroyed 3 cities did no damage to infrastructure?
quote:
Most of them are people living check-to-check, with no resources to leave. A few elected to stay, but most couldn't get out. The traffic out of NOLA was so slow during the evacuation, even with inboud lanes of the interstate diverted to also be outbound, that it became a 4 hour drive from downtown just to the airport,
First, if they could not get out on their own, why did local authorites do NOTHING? Rather they waited, until after the event, and threw a fit when the National Guard could not be mobilized and moved at the speed of light. Additionally, the freeways were not converted to one way only until a few hours before the storm hit.. The state just "forgot" to do that.
quote: William Hooper
the order was given for everyone to just hang on & the Superdome was opened as a shelter of last resort.
Opened, but not supplied, by local authorites...
quote: William Hooper
How fast could you evacuate Chicago?
Chicago is MUCH bigger.. Irregardless, if the city cannot evacuate 100,000 with all infrastructure intact, no flood waters, and personnel on scene within the 24-48 hours advance notice they had, how the hell do they expect the feds, who have to mobilize troops, move them and equipment to the scene, bypassing damaged infrastructure and armed gangs, to manage to do what they could not in the same amount of time? On one hand they whine that it was too hard for them to do it, on the other they blame the feds for not performing miracles in their lawless city.
quote: William Hooper
This is just gassing away at guessing. The interstate, all lanes, between New Orleans & Baton Rouge was completely passable.
Completely passable? Wow. All the debris that is covereing all the roads throughout the disaster areas just missed the interstates? What about the destoryed bridges? What about the submerged highways? The only thing any of the infrastructure was completely passable by was a helicopter. Remember William, you have to clear the roads and route around damage before you can stream vehicles in. NO is on the south end of an area of destruction larger than Great Britain.
quote: William Hooper
This was how all the press got in, who are apparently the only people FEMA was afraid to stop.
Actually, a lot of them got in at first by helicopter... Which begs the question, why weren't they being more humanitarian and using those choppers to evacuate the injured and airlift in supplies?
quote: William Hooper
There's lots of video of the long, lonely stretches of interstate between New Orleans & BTR after the hurricane.
And equal amounts of footage of destroyed bridges, debris covered highways and submerged freeways.
quote: William Hooper
National Guard & relief could & SHOULD have been streaming into NOLA.
It takes TIME to mobilize troops and move them and equipment William. Again, NO was not the only city damaged, though it is the only one that is total anarchy. First response in a disaster has always been the responsibiity of local authorities.
quote: William Hooper
The Red Cross was ordered by FEMA to stay out
What do you think, could this have something to do with the fact that they would be fired upon by the locals?
quote: William Hooper
then the OMB slashed their funding for the last 2 years
OMB can't do anything of the sort. Your gripe is with Congress. Also, a lot of the levy money was cut during the Clintion years, because it was Clintion's view that flood control was largely a local matter, and he was able to convince Congress to re-route some of that funding.
quote: William Hooper
No, FEMA is above him when an emergency is declared. Local agencies, like Parish Presidents, have begun defying FEMA orders & even turning back Federal agents & National Guard personnel acting on orders from FEMA to cut power, cease rescues, etc.
So FEMA is in charge, but locals are ignoring them? Myabe that is part of the confusion. William, missions of this size are logistical nightmares without local officials deliberatly obstructing. Remember, this is the largest disaster area in American history.
quote:
National Guard has ALWAYS been called out to assist rescues & maintain order in emergencies in hurricanes, etc.,
Part of the delay in moving other states NG units in was that LA did not have mutual aid pacts with other states that covered law enforcement activities. Absent that, the units could not move until that issue was resolved.
quote: William Hooper
I don't know how it's playing elsewhere, but across party lines down here, the mayor of New Orleans is showing himself to be the only straightforward person in charge of anything out there.
Really, cause in the rest of the country we think he is a loon. I found this interesting - could be because he has, twice now, alleged that the CIA is now trying to kill him - once to the AP, once to CNN -
"Last night he told a reporter for the Associated Press: "If the CIA slips me something and next week you don't see me, you'll all know what happened."
Today he told interviewers for CNN on a live broadcast he feared the "CIA might take me out."
crazy mayor article
quote: William Hooper
the Guard units can't deploy without authorization from the President
Guard units are under the control of the governor in disaster relief missions.
quote: William Hooper
Because they couldn't get everyone out in time.
They didn't try.. They could have gotten some out, which would have meant less people to evacuate after the fact.
quote: William Hooper
Because the citizens with private transportation got on the roads first, & even THEY couldn't all get out
Could have to do with the state not thinking to change over the inbound lanes until the storm was just about to hit.. Poor planning on the part of local authorities.
quote: William Hooper
They did. Contraflow evacuation plans
They were very late in doing so...
quote: William Hooper
"Why wasn't the Superdome stocked 24 hours in advance with enough food & water for 20,000 people to live on for a week?"
That is exactally the question.. You point fingers at the feds for not being able to airlift it in, but you hold the locals blameless for not trucking it in before the flood? The plan to use the Superdoms had been in place for years as a contigency. Had the locals had ANY foresight, MREs and bottled water would have been stored there already.. Again - POOR planning by the local authorities.
quote:
After what? NY, Detroit, LA, Chicago, any large American city? They've been hanging on the job as best they could,
No, they are historically the most corrupt major PD. That is not to say all their officers, or even a majority of their officers are bad, but they have more bad apples than most. That is because of a total lack of effective leadership at the top. The other effect of that lack of leadership is the signifigant collapse of that department.
quote: William Hooper
they've had a job any
armchair gasbag has never had to DREAM of facing.
Armchair gasbag, eh? Because I disagree with you? Are you going to analyze me now?
quote: William Hooper
The Federal agencies are working AGAINST them, ignoring their requests, getting nothing doen
Getting nothing done? Yep.. there are still tens of thousands of people standing at the superdome.. Oh wait, no there isnt...
quote: William Hooper
apparently the
only way to get anything moving is to publicly list EVERY problem, & publicly identify BY NAME the department
or person responsible. That's finger-pointing & name-calling.
So its ok to blame the feds, but don't you dare say anything about the mayor? The same mayor now "hiding" from the CIA?
quote: William Hooper
No, you're wrong again, but you must be used to that by now. In a state of emergency now, the plan & operation are controlled by FEMA, which is now under the Department of Homeland Security, & much of it cannot be activated without authorization of the President, like deployment of Guard troops & the army. Yes, there was an emergency plan, drawn up by NOLA & FEMA.
Guard units are under the control of GOVERNORS unless they are federalized, which is never done in disaster situations. Active duty personnel are used as a last resort due to Possie Comitatus concerns - and cannot be used for law enforcement. The emergency plan called for moving people to the superdome - so why was is not supplied in advance?
quote: William Hooper
They were on standby when the state of emergency was declared.
That does not mean they were on scene. Only in state units in the affected states were on standby, not the entire US...
quote: William Hooper
EVERYBODY expected the possibility of a levee breech in a category 3 storm; that's what the levee was ORIGINALLY rated for by the corps of engineers. That possibility was included in the disaster plan created & filed by FEMA. You quite literally are making stuff up.
if the mayor expected iot to break, then why wansn't he on the radio giving a profanity laden tirade to his people to get them to get out of the area before the storm? What happened is the storm swung east and got weaker... The levy was expected to hold... If I recall correctly, didn't the breaches occur after the storm, due to weakness and the rapidly rising lake? The Mississippi river levys did hold.
quote: William Hooper
They weren't doing a thing but consolidating control. Nothing was happening for THREE DAYS of no food, water, or organized rescue, while the feds stopped locals & folks from outside from doing anything, either.
Um, actually, there were hundreds of helicopter sorties pulling people off roofs, etc.. That is until the locals started shooting at the choppers - which slowed down rescue efforts. FEMA would have been stopping locals from getting in to prevent having more people to rescue. If it was SO EASY to get in any out of NO, then why was everyone stuck at the superdome? Why didn't they just walk out? Those flood waters could have had something to do with it...
quote: William Hooper
I'm absoloutely sure of Zeigler's party affiliation & who he voted for, he's blowing smoke. Brad can't tell who I voted for, I'm an independent.
So now you are trying to get me banned because I disagree with you? How childish... Actually, this has nothing to do with party affiliation...
William - some intersting quotes from another article - Washington Post Article
quote:
The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor.
William, didn't you just insiste that the NG was under the President's authority right now?
quote:
Some officials in the state suspected a political motive behind the request. "Quite frankly, if they'd been able to pull off taking it away from the locals, they then could have blamed everything on the locals," said the source, who does not have the authority to speak publicly.
So the locals are slowing down rescue efforts so they can deflect blame? In situations such as this, command and control are VITAL.
quote:
Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said. As of Saturday, Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency, the senior Bush official said.
Oops... I wonder if that could have been part of the problem..
quote:
Blanco made two moves Saturday that protected her independence from the federal government: She created a philanthropic fund for the state's victims and hired James Lee Witt, Federal Emergency Management Agency director in the Clinton administration, to advise her on the relief effort.
Yep.. preventing unified command and control... that sure will help matters... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:
In a Washington briefing, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said one reason federal assets were not used more quickly was "because our constitutional system really places the primary authority in each state with the governor."
Its called "states rights" William... In the 1860s LA joined in a rebellion against the federal govt because they felt the govt was interefering with those rights..
quote:
New Orleans City Council President Oliver Thomas acknowledged that the city was surprised by the number of refugees left behind, but he said FEMA should have been prepared to assist.
Translation - "FEMA, fix our screw up- NOW!"
quote:
State officials had planned to turn to neighboring states for help with troops, transportation and equipment in a major hurricane. But in Katrina's case, Mississippi, Alabama and Florida were also overwhelmed, said Denise Bottcher, a Blanco spokesman.
Hmm... I wonder if that could have been part of the delay.. NO wasnt the only one hit you know... However, if you listen to LA and NO officials, NO was the only place damaged at all...
quote:
The boatmen who made it in came back with harrowing memories. Kenny, who did not want to disclose his last name, said friends were shot at by stranded people who wanted to steal their boats. "It's total chaos," he said.
Which is why FEMA has been keeping out non-government people.. Just yesterday, a group of Corps of Engineers contractors came under fire from what has been reported to be a group of 8 people. Police shot and killed several of the attackers.
quote:
9,500 have been rescued by the Coast Guard.
Most of this was during the time you were insisting that no one was doing anything... 9500 people would be a couple thousand sorties...
quote:
Regular military troops are constrained by law from engaging in domestic law enforcement. By contrast, Guard troops, who are under the command of state governors, have no such constraints.
Posse Comitatus, William....
[ 09-05-2005, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Jim Ziegler ]
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Gerard S. Cohen
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 975
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted 09-05-2005 10:35 PM
New York City received a request for 50 police squad cars with at least two officers in each. The caravan of 100 eager police volunteers, male and female, some of whom speak creole, were soon dispatched, flashing lights blazing; they arrived quickly in New Orleans, and are presently helping secure the streets.
Mayor Bloomberg echoed the sentiments of the officers by thanking the services of many states who came to NYC after the 9/11 disaster, including many from Louisiana. Seems many New Yorkers were born in N.O. and environs, and the officers jumped at the opportunity to reciprocate assistance.
A request was made also, for 300 NYC firefighters, who were quickly dispatched by air, and are assisting the search and rescue operations in N.O. [In NYC fire personnel are first responders in medical and all other emergencies, and are trained as EMS workers as well as firefighters.]
The NY officers were quickly federalized for service to permit them to serve out of state in their NYC uniforms and vehicles.
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Ron Yost
Master Film Handler
Posts: 344
From: Paso Robles, CA
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 09-06-2005 12:59 PM
Here's a good, well-reasoned article which appears today on the New York Times' site:
September 6, 2005
Magic Marker Strategy
By JOHN TIERNEY
Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company
It was the climax of George W. Bush's video introduction at the Republican convention: the moment at Yankee Stadium during the 2001 World Series when he threw a pitch all the way to home plate. The video ended, and the conventioneers cheered as Mr. Bush strode onto a stage shaped like a pitcher's mound.
Well, live by the pitch, die by the pitch. When you campaign as the man on the mound, the great leader whose arm rescues Americans in their moment of need, they expect you to deal with a hurricane, too.
Mr. Bush made a lot of mistakes last week, but most of his critics are making an even bigger one now by obsessing about what he said and did. We can learn more by listening to men like Jim Judkins, particularly when he explains the Magic Marker method of disaster preparedness.
Mr. Judkins is one of the officials in charge of evacuating the Hampton Roads region around Newport News, Va. These coastal communities, unlike New Orleans, are not below sea level, but they're much better prepared for a hurricane. Officials have plans to run school buses and borrow other buses to evacuate those without cars, and they keep registries of the people who need special help.
Instead of relying on a "Good Samaritan" policy - the fantasy in New Orleans that everyone would take care of the neighbors - the Virginia rescue workers go door to door. If people resist the plea to leave, Mr. Judkins told The Daily Press in Newport News, rescue workers give them Magic Markers and ask them to write their Social Security numbers on their body parts so they can be identified.
"It's cold, but it's effective," Mr. Judkins explained.
That simple strategy could have persuaded hundreds of people to save their own lives in New Orleans. What the city needed most was coldly effective local leaders, not a president in Washington who could feel their pain. It's the same lesson we should have learned from Sept. 11 and other disasters, yet both liberals and conservatives keep ignoring it.
The liberals bewailing the insensitivity and racism of Republicans in Washington sound like a bad rerun of the 1960's, when urban riots were blamed on everyone but the rioters and the police. Yes, the White House did a terrible job of responding to Katrina, but Democratic leaders in New Orleans and Louisiana didn't even fulfill their basic duties.
In coastal Virginia - which, by the way, has a large black population and plenty of Republican politicians - Mr. Judkins and his colleagues assume that it's their job to evacuate people, maintain order and stockpile supplies to last for 72 hours, until federal help arrives. In New Orleans, the mayor seemed to assume all that was beyond his control, just like the mayors in the 1960's who let the riots occur.
They said their cities couldn't survive without help from Washington, which proceeded to shower inner cities with money and programs that did more damage than the riots. Cities didn't recover until some mayors, especially Republicans like Rudy Giuliani, tried self-reliance.
Mr. Giuliani was called heartless and racist for cutting the welfare rolls and focusing on crime reduction, but black neighborhoods were the greatest beneficiaries of his policies. He was criticized for ignoring social services as he concentrated on reorganizing the Police and Fire Departments, but his cold effectiveness made the city a more livable place and kept it calm after Sept. 11.
Yet Mr. Bush, with approval from conservatives who should have known better, reacted to Sept. 11 by centralizing disaster planning in Washington. He created the byzantine Homeland Security Department, with predictable results last week.
The Federal Emergency Management Agency, often criticized for ineptitude, became even less efficient after it was swallowed by a bureaucracy consumed with terrorism. The department has spent billions on new federal airport screeners - with no discernible public benefit - while giving short shrift to natural disasters.
The federal officials who had been laboring on a one-size-fits-all strategy were unprepared for the peculiarities of New Orleans, like the high percentage of people without cars. The local officials who knew about that problem didn't do anything about it - and then were furious when Mr. Bush didn't solve it for them. Why didn't the man on the mound come through for them?
It's a fair question as they go door to door looking for bodies. But so is this: Why didn't they go door to door last week with Magic Markers?
Email: tierney@nytimes.com
-- end of article
Ron Yost, moderate in all things. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Mark J. Marshall
Film God
Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 09-06-2005 01:09 PM
Well, at least Sean Penn is down there doing what he can...
Link (found this on Drudge)
Text:
Sean Penn's rescue bid sinks
From correspondents in New Orleans
05sep05
EFFORTS by Hollywood actor Sean Penn to aid New Orleans victims stranded by Hurricane Katrina foundered badly overnight, when the boat he was piloting to launch a rescue attempt sprang a leak.
Penn had planned to rescue children waylaid by Katrina's flood waters, but apparently forgot to plug a hole in the bottom of the vessel, which began taking water within seconds of its launch.
The actor, known for his political activism, was seen wearing what appeared to be a white flak jacket and frantically bailing water out of the sinking vessel with a red plastic cup.
When the boat's motor failed to start, those aboard were forced to use paddles to propel themselves down the flooded New Orleans street.
Asked what he had hoped to achieve in the waterlogged city, the actor replied: "Whatever I can do to help."
With the boat loaded with members of Penn's entourage, including a personal photographer, one bystander taunted the actor: "How are you going to get any people in that thing?"
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) is reporting that Canada is sending three naval vessels, a Coast Guard vessel and forty naval divers to New Orleans. My conspiracy theorist friends tell me it's just the latest stage of a planned takeover of our country that also includes Cirque du Soleil, IMAX, and those robotic arms that NASA uses.
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