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This topic comprises 10 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
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Author
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Topic: Hurricane Katrina
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Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 09-02-2005 10:18 PM
As the governor of LA and the mayor of NO scream and point fingers at the feds, a few questions have come to mind.
1) Why was the mandaroy evacuation of NO voluntary?
2) Why was the city of NO not utilizing buses to evacuate people without cars? After all, they could have used these buses:
3) Why were the interstates leaving NO kept in a 2 way configuration for most of the evacuation? Traffic would have moved much faster having 6 lanes, rather then leave the 3 incomming lanes empty.
4) Why did they tells tens of thousands of people to take refuge in the Superdome yet, with the 24 hours advance notice they had, it did not occur to anyone to supply the superdome with food and water?
5) Why did the mayor of NO blame FEMA for not securing his city? FEMA is not a law enforcement agency. Why were officers not told to keep control sooner?
Really, those two just need to pipe down. With the destruction of roads, bridges, rail, and a signifigant amount of the vehicles in the area, it will take time to reach the city. The "victims" shooting at rescue helicopters, trying to steal weapons from Guardsmen, and playing sniper outside a firestation - pinning down 50 firemen - do not help the situation.
When you look at the situation there - 6 homicides in 3 days among the 20,000 at the superdome (not to mention untold numbers of rapes and assaults) - attacks on rescuers - and "victims" throwing away MREs and then complaining to reporters about not liking the food - you really have to ask what the hell is wrong with those people?
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Randy Stankey
Film God
Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 09-03-2005 12:13 AM
One thing that has to be considered: Rescue crews, aid workers and news media have only begun to be able to get into the city.
Think about the old axiom that says if you hire more police crime rates will go UP before they go down. This is because the new police officers are uncovering crimes that used to go unreported.
The same thing is going to happen in the hurricane areas. As recuers, aid workers and media make their way into the city more and more death and destruction will be uncovered that previously went unseen.
This does NOT account for the fact that there has been a delay in getting aid to the disaster areas. The people trapped without food, water, clothing and shelter are going to be in a bad situation until help arrives. As time goes on, things will get worse for them.
But you still have to remember that that section of the Gulf Coast have simply been FUCKED UP. It is GOING to get worse before it gets better. The more people that make it INTO the areas, the more of the destruction that will be unveiled. Some things will get better with time. Some things will get worse before they get better.
This does not diminish the fact that things are bad... VERY bad. This does not diminish the fact that things that COULD have been done haven't been done.
However, it will APPEAR that, overall, things are getting worse than they really are. We simply need to keep that perspective in mind as we think about the state of things on the Gulf Coast.
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Jason Burroughs
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 654
From: Allen, TX
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 09-03-2005 12:29 AM
I'm not all that opposed to leaving New Orleans under water with the way the animals have been acting down there.
Sure, you can be extreemly upset about not having food, water, medical attention, but how in the WORLD to you justify the breakdown of general decency. There's nothing that can explain the homicides, rapes, brutal attacks etc. that have been happening down there.
Its in the face of advercity that the true face of a society will reveal itself, and New Orleans has revealed itself here. New York has a reputation of being a cold, brutal, city, how ever, one has to consider the grace in which that city has handled 9/11, the black outs, etc in recent memory.
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Aaron Mehocic
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 804
From: New Castle, PA, USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 09-03-2005 01:49 PM
quote: Leo Enticknap
Agreed entirely with Bobby and Stephen - it's about time Kofi Annan announced UN help for the Gulf [of Mexico, not Persia] states.
And I have a sneaky suspicion it would be rejected outright by some people even before the ships or planes ever arrived at their respective staging points. Intercity New Orleans would probably accept the initial shipments, then let the rest rot on the docks because it "didn't meet our expectation". Some poor whites out in rural Mississippi would reject the aide simply because it indeed came from the United Nations. For them it would be a patriotic gesture to go hungry. Mark Gulbrandsen is right about everything he said about that part of our nation.
quote: Jim Ziegler
I don't know how the people in NO would react to foriegn troops assisting with the evacuations, and, with the situation, I don't know if putting foriegn troops on the ground would do anything but cause a field day in the press when one of them had to shoot someone.
We'll never see foreign troops in New Orleans, or any other devastated American city for that matter, since it seriously calls into question our own sovereignty and probably violates some Federal statute somewhere in 230 years of American law. Americans will unite to help out other nations with good will or organized troops, but I don't think we'd look to kindly on having other soldiers on our own soil. And as Jim suggests, could you imagine the fall out when Jim Bob or John Boy shots one simply because he looked like somebody who "knocked down MY World Trade Center". ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote: Phil Hill
He's blaming EVERYONE ELSE for HIS mismanagement of this whole sad situation and HIS (and his predecessor's) lack of disaster planning and emergency contingencies for a cataclysmic disaster that would ultimately come.
Which is why if I was Al Quida, the "dream still lives and the hope will never die", that they could ultimately destroy this country. How long until the news sluts pick that up and run with it. NEVER!
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David Buckley
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 525
From: Oxford, N. Canterbury, New Zealand
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted 09-03-2005 02:11 PM
As I live a long way from you folks I dont get your mainstream news coverage, but have been watching that that is available to me, which includes live pictures 24/7 from downtown NO, police and other radio coverage, really quite a lot of real information, unfiltered and ofen unopinionated, all since the night before Katrina. When Katrina was downgraded to a four just before landfall I went to bed, complacent in the thought that this would be just another blow that will disturb a few shingles and traffic signs. How wrong that turned out to be...
I've also been watching forum and discussions, mainly between Americans, about NO and the aftermath, and it has been an enlightening, and often disturbing experience.
I'm gonna quote this BBC News article
At the end of an unforgettable week, one broadcaster on Friday bitterly encapsulated the sense of burning shame and anger that many American citizens are feeling.
The only difference between the chaos of New Orleans and a Third World disaster operation, he said, was that a foreign dictator would have responded better.
It has been a profoundly shocking experience for many across this vast country who, for the large part, believe the home-spun myth about the invulnerability of the American Dream.
The party in power in Washington is always happy to convey the impression of 50 states moving forward together in social and economic harmony towards a bigger and better America.
That is what presidential campaigning is all about.
But what the devastating consequences of Katrina have shown - along with the response to it - is that for too long now, the fabric of this complex and overstretched country, especially in states like Louisiana and Mississippi, has been neglected and ignored.
Borrowed time
The fitting metaphors relating to the New Orleans debacle are almost too numerous to mention.
First there was an extraordinary complacency, mixed together with what seemed like over-reaction, before the storm.
A genuinely heroic mayor orders a total evacuation of the city the day before Katrina arrives, knowing that for decades now, New Orleans has been living on borrowed time.
The National Guard and federal emergency personnel stay tucked up at home.
The havoc of Katrina had been predicted countless times on a local and federal level - even to the point where it was acknowledged that tens of thousands of the poorest residents would not be able to leave the city in advance.
No official plan was ever put in place for them.
Abandoned to the elements
The famous levees that were breached could have been strengthened and raised at what now seems like a trifling cost of a few billion dollars.
The Bush administration, together with Congress, cut the budgets for flood protection and army engineers, while local politicians failed to generate any enthusiasm for local tax increases.
New Orleans partied-on just hoping for the best, abandoned by anyone in national authority who could have put the money into really protecting the city.
Meanwhile, the poorest were similarly abandoned, as the horrifying images and stories from the Superdome and Convention Center prove.
The truth was simple and apparent to all. If journalists were there with cameras beaming the suffering live across America, where were the officers and troops?
The neglect that meant it took five days to get water, food, and medical care to thousands of mainly orderly African-American citizens desperately sheltering in huge downtown buildings of their native city, has been going on historically, for as long as the inadequate levees have been there.
Divided city
I should make a confession at this point: I have been to New Orleans on assignment three times in as many years, and I was smitten by the Big Easy, with its unique charms and temperament.
But behind the elegant intoxicants of the French Quarter, it was clearly a city grotesquely divided on several levels. It has twice the national average poverty rate.
The government approach to such deprivation looked more like thoughtless containment than anything else.
The nightly shootings and drugs-related homicides of recent years pointed to a small but vicious culture of largely black-on-black crime that everyone knew existed, but no-one seemed to have any real answers for.
Again, no-one wanted to pick up the bill or deal with the realities of race relations in the 21st Century.
Too often in the so-called "New South", they still look positively 19th Century.
"Shoot the looters" is good rhetoric, but no lasting solution.
Uneasy paradox
It is astonishing to me that so many Americans seem shocked by the existence of such concentrated poverty and social neglect in their own country.
In the workout room of the condo where I am currently staying in the affluent LA neighbourhood of Santa Monica, an executive and his personal trainer ignored the anguished television reports blaring above their heads on Friday evening.
Either they did not care, or it was somehow too painful to discuss.
When President Bush told "Good Morning America" on Thursday morning that nobody could have "anticipated" the breach of the New Orleans levees, it pointed to not only a remote leader in denial, but a whole political class.
The uneasy paradox which so many live with in this country - of being first-and-foremost rugged individuals, out to plunder what they can and paying as little tax as they can get away with, while at the same time believing that America is a robust, model society - has reached a crisis point this week.
Will there be real investment, or just more buck-passing between federal agencies and states?
The country has to choose whether it wants to rebuild the levees and destroyed communities, with no expense spared for the future - or once again brush off that responsibility, and blame the other guy.
Just some other stuff - yep, the budget cut, from memory its $71.2m.
There was a mandatory evacuation, but of course, being America, you still have some freedoms, so mandatory isn't actually mandatory, just advice. Unlike, for example, Cuba, where a mandatory evacuation is exactly that.
Foreign aid was offered from more than two dozen countries, Rice said thanks, yes, we'll accept it all, but Bush said no, we can do this. Even useful stuff like the German portable clean water extractors were turned down. The Russians got a no thanks too.
There are some heros - A kid stole a bus and drove a hundred people to safety and it looks like he's in real trouble.
There are some strange things, like the boss of FEMA has no actual experience of disaster management, which you would have to assume contributed to FEMAs response... Apparently FEMA have been modelling this scenario for over a decade, you would have thought they would be right up in there.
Heres the long version of the Interview with Mayor Nagin. You might have a case for bad mouthing him for stuff occuring before the event, but not anything he's done thereafter.
My real problem is that I've seen the West Wing. I know how it works. Bartlet sees bad stuff happen on CNN, tells Leo to fix it, and CJ tells us its gonna be Ok, The Prez is on the case. Being The Prez gives you access to those kinds of resources and power. Yet there is no evidence that anything actually happened.
But there is evidence that the USA will accept some aid - gasoline. All the countries of the IEA are going to send you gas, ready refined gas. Keep on drivin' folks...
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Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 09-03-2005 06:12 PM
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Yea, and then half of them turned in their badges and ran! Scared they were going to get their weenies blown off. After that many fire departments literally penned themselves in their stations to keep the thugs out and could'nt leave to put out the fires.
The NOPD (hmmm... NO PD.. it fits) has been one of the most corrupt departments in the nation. If I recall correctly, they were under Federal oversight for a while. Its clear that there is a leadership problem in that department and the city would have been wise, long ago, to gut it and start over.
quote:
At 5 am I saw watched a teary interview with the police chief... asking no less for them to bring in a cruise ship so he and his officers could have a little comfort...... This guy is right up there with the Mayor! Better get each a nice new Lazy-Boy!
I have heard interviews with both the mayor and the police chief. They think that the way to solve the crisis is to scream and finger point. All they manage to do is make it harder for federal and state agencies to work with them.
quote: Aaron Mehocic
Intercity New Orleans would probably accept the initial shipments, then let the rest rot on the docks because it "didn't meet our expectation".
Some woman who was being interviewed on Fox (I believe), was complaining that she didnt have any food for 4 days and then threw away the MRE she was given because she didn't like it.
quote: Aaron Mehocic
We'll never see foreign troops in New Orleans, or any other devastated American city for that matter, since it seriously calls into question our own sovereignty and probably violates some Federal statute somewhere in 230 years of American law.
It is not unusual for foriegn troops to be on US soil (most at US training facilities, but a few years back the German Air Force had a squadron here for a while for something or other). Honestly, I would not see it as any violation of our soverengty, any more than our European allies would view the presance of our troops. I would not bring in forieng peacekeepers for the sole reason as I would not want to expose an ally to the grief when one of their troops has to defend themselves and shoot an american.
I did hear on the news last night the Canada was sending police officers to assist in some areas though. Also, other nations do have specialists and supplies as well.
quote: David Buckley
The only difference between the chaos of New Orleans and a Third World disaster operation, he said, was that a foreign dictator would have responded better.
Foriegn dictatior do not have to worry about Federalism or Possie Commitatus - both of which limit the President's use of federal power and troops. Federal agencies can do little until a state formally requests it, and active duty federal troops can do very little in the way of domestic law enforcement. National Guard units are under the control of Governors in this situation and are *supposted* to be for disaster relief - not law enforcement.
quote: David Buckley
genuinely heroic mayor orders a total evacuation of the city the day before Katrina arrives, knowing that for decades now, New Orleans has been living on borrowed time.
The mayor could have done much more to prepare the city for this and minimize loss of life. The city did *NOTHING* to evacuate people who could not leave the city on their own - and then this mayor has the gall to point at Bush and say its all his fault. America is not a nanny state. Local governments and citizens are expected to do what they can to care for their own needs.
quote: David Buckley
The National Guard and federal emergency personnel stay tucked up at home.
The National Guard is under state control (besides, deploying them before the storm would have rendered those units largely incapable of performing their mission). FEMA and federal troops can do little until the state requests it, but, again, prepositioning units and equipment would have resulted in destroyed equipment and ineffective units). Areas that were reachable - like Biloxi and Gulfport - saw assistance quickly. NO was much harder to reach due to the destruction or flooding of bridges, roads and rail lines.
It takes time to mobilize Guardsman as well - they are not active duty troops on a base - and time to get ships, aricraft, and vehicles together and deployed.
quote: David Buckley
The havoc of Katrina had been predicted countless times on a local and federal level - even to the point where it was acknowledged that tens of thousands of the poorest residents would not be able to leave the city in advance.
Unfortunately, there are many disasters for which there is no effective planning - many for which there is really nothing that can be done. For example - the largest earthquake in the US (well above 9.0) took place on the New Madrid fault in Missouri - before there was much of a population in the middle of the nation. If such an event were to happen today the damage would be more than anyone can imagine. People have tried to do planning for this event. Their conclusion was, basically, if it happens, we're screwed.
quote: David Buckley
The famous levees that were breached could have been strengthened and raised at what now seems like a trifling cost of a few billion dollars.
The Bush administration, together with Congress, cut the budgets for flood protection and army engineers, while local politicians failed to generate any enthusiasm for local tax increases.
The reports I heard on this was that the project would have taken $14 billion and 25 years to complete. Bush has not been in office 25 years, so, you can't point the finger of blame at him. During the Clintion administration many flood control progjects were cut by Clintion because his view, which is correct in my opinion, is that flood control was largely the responsibiliy of state and local governments.
quote: David Buckley
New Orleans partied-on just hoping for the best, abandoned by anyone in national authority who could have put the money into really protecting the city.
There are MANY places that need this or that or the other thing. However, there is not an infinite amount of money in the Federal Treasury.
quote: David Buckley
Meanwhile, the poorest were similarly abandoned, as the horrifying images and stories from the Superdome and Convention Center prove.
Which, again, begs the question, why did the mayor not try to get these people out or at least have the shelters provisioned with supplies?
quote: David Buckley
The truth was simple and apparent to all. If journalists were there with cameras beaming the suffering live across America, where were the officers and troops?
From day one they were plucking people off rooftops. It is much easier to fly in a couple dozen journalits with their networks helicopters than to mobilize adn transport thousands of troops.
quote: David Buckley
The nightly shootings and drugs-related homicides of recent years pointed to a small but vicious culture of largely black-on-black crime that everyone knew existed, but no-one seemed to have any real answers for.
Seems like this is an issue for the mayor and the police chief, if they can find time to get away from the front of the cameras.
quote: David Buckley
When President Bush told "Good Morning America" on Thursday morning that nobody could have "anticipated" the breach of the New Orleans levees, it pointed to not only a remote leader in denial, but a whole political class.
I don't think anyone in power, from the mayor on up, actually expected that levy to break. After all, the storm had lost power and took a swing to the east - everyone thought NO was going to dodge the bullet.
quote: David Buckley
The country has to choose whether it wants to rebuild the levees and destroyed communities, with no expense spared for the future - or once again brush off that responsibility, and blame the other guy.
I am for option three as expoused by the Speaker of the House - DON'T rebuild the lowlying areas. To do so would be stupid.
quote: David Buckley
There was a mandatory evacuation, but of course, being America, you still have some freedoms, so mandatory isn't actually mandatory, just advice. Unlike, for example, Cuba, where a mandatory evacuation is exactly that.
I have ZERO sympathy for those who had the means to evacuate and chose to stay. They chose their own fate and their choice is now straining the rescue efforts to get those who did not have a choice out. For those that could not get out on their own, why did the city make no effort to get them out?
quote: David Buckley
Foreign aid was offered from more than two dozen countries, Rice said thanks, yes, we'll accept it all, but Bush said no, we can do this. Even useful stuff like the German portable clean water extractors were turned down. The Russians got a no thanks too.
Lots of forieng aid has been accepted. Realize that some countries have offered things that at this point we do not need (Russia, if I recall correctly, offered peacekeeping troops, which would not have been deployable until well after the situation was secured)
quote: David Buckley
There are some heros - A kid stole a bus and drove a hundred people to safety and it looks like he's in real trouble.
No one is going to prosecute this kid for anything...
quote: David Buckley
There are some strange things, like the boss of FEMA has no actual experience of disaster management, which you would have to assume contributed to FEMAs response... Apparently FEMA have been modelling this scenario for over a decade, you would have thought they would be right up in there.
I can't speak to the resume of the head of FEMA, but, agency heads are typically beureucratic posts - which means frequently they are more administrators than anything. SecState Rice has no experience as a diplomat, either. Additionally, FEMA has a ton of things to prepare for nationwide - from earthqueakes on the west coast, to freak ice storms in the north, to hurricanes up and down the east coast, to terrorist attacks, tornadoes, volcanoes, etc... New Orleans is one city out of hundreds in the US.
quote: David Buckley
You might have a case for bad mouthing him for stuff occuring before the event, but not anything he's done thereafter.
All he's done after is run his mouth...
quote: David Buckley
My real problem is that I've seen the West Wing. I know how it works. Bartlet sees bad stuff happen on CNN, tells Leo to fix it, and CJ tells us its gonna be Ok, The Prez is on the case. Being The Prez gives you access to those kinds of resources and power. Yet there is no evidence that anything actually happened.
Real life is different than TV. The President is limited in what he can do directly without a specific request from the state - i.e. he cannot depoly federal troops without a request from the governor (unless, as happened in the sixties, he is deploying federal troops to force the governor to follow federal law). This, traditonally, is the responsibility of the Guard. While it is true that some units are on deployment overseas, there are other Guard units in LA as well - but - deploying them takes time.
quote: David Buckley
But there is evidence that the USA will accept some aid - gasoline. All the countries of the IEA are going to send you gas, ready refined gas. Keep on drivin' folks...
So, you want us to all quit our jobs and stay home?
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