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This topic comprises 10 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
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Author
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Topic: Hurricane Katrina
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 09-04-2005 12:47 PM
quote: Jim Ziegler
It does seem like France and Germany take any chance they get to try and take a stab at the US. I find it interesting that they are criticizing US economic and environmental policy when the US economy is night and day stronger than theirs.
To deflect attention from their own problems, probably. If you're being held responsible for having caused a mess, a classic tactic is to try and hold someone else responsible for causing an even bigger one.
quote: The Sunday Times (today)
Schröder will play US card in TV duel
Justin Sparks, Celle, Lower Saxony
GERMANY’S election reaches a decisive stage tonight with a television debate in which Chancellor Gerhard Schröder will accuse Angela Merkel, his conservative challenger, of being too close to Washington and of having a hidden agenda to undermine the welfare state.
Schröder, whose opposition to the Iraq war helped him to a narrow re-election win in 2002, is expected to play the anti-American card again, depicting Merkel as a closet “neoconservative” like those around President George W Bush.
He may also seek to portray her as a German Margaret Thatcher bent on introducing radical economic reforms that would cut workers’ rights and reduce welfare benefits.
An estimated 20m people — a third of voters — are expected to watch the debate, seen as a last chance for Schröder, a polished television performer, to close his Christian Democrat rival’s commanding double-digit lead in the run-up to voting on September 18.
Preparations for the 90- minute encounter — the candidates’ only one-to-one confrontation of the campaign — have been characterised by wrangling over everything from the position of their podiums to camera angles.
Much of the chancellor’s fire will be directed not at Merkel herself, however, but at Paul Kirchhof, a relatively unknown university professor she wants as her finance minister. Kirchhof was catapulted to the centre of the campaign in July after making radical proposals to sweep away Germany’s highly complex tax system and replace it with a simple 25% flat tax. Last week, he dropped another bombshell by arguing for the privatisation of Germany’s generous state pension system.
Although applauded by economists, such ideas have alarmed many voters and have been rejected by some senior members of Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union (CDU).
Merkel has been evasive about whether the ideas, which are not in the party programme, will be implemented if she wins — allowing Schröder to suggest she is not being entirely honest. “Kirchof is the German arm of the American neocons . . . who were also responsible for the Iraq war,” said Michael Müller, the vice-chairman of Schröder’s Social Democratic party (SDP) last week. “Kirchhof is a byword for the total dismantling of the social state.”
The chancellor gave a foretaste of the tactics he is likely to use in tonight’s debate at a rally in Celle, in his home state of Lower Saxony, on Friday night, when he dismissed Kirchhof as the “Merkel whisperer”. “We have to fight to keep Merkel and her eccentric professor at bay,” he told an enthusiastic crowd. “She says she wants to try out her ideas — I say, you can’t turn our nation into a laboratory for experimental tests on animals.”
The Schröder camp’s hopes of a post-debate “bounce” have been raised by polls suggesting the SDP, stuck for weeks at around 30%, has risen to 32%, even though the CDU still commands 43%. The chancellor will take some comfort from the commanding lead in personal popularity he enjoys over Merkel. “This election will be decided in the last few days of the campaign,” said Peter Struck, the defence minister and confidant of the chancellor, in an interview. “Schröder is better than Merkel and the TV duel will kick-start a new, intense phase in our campaign.”
It emerged last week that Merkel has been coached by Alexander Niemetz, a former television news reader. He is believed to have advised her to slow her machinegun delivery, use softer hand actions and, most importantly, smile but avoid her trademark grin. “She can’t compete with Schröder’s charm factor and shouldn’t aim to be liked more than him,” said Jürgen Falter, a prominent political commentator. “But the chancellor has nothing to offer but fear of what she’s planning, so she needs to make clear that she’s the only one with answers.”
Although tonight’s clash is the sole “duel” between the candidates, it was announced last week they would share a stage with other party leaders on September 12. The one-to-one debate is seen as their critical encounter, however, and the minutiae of its arrangements were still being hammered out up to the last moment.
Schröder will be asked the first question, but Merkel will have the last word, and two of the four journalists asking the questions will be women. It has also been agreed the 10 cameras will show the candidates only from the front and side — and not the back. Merkel will be relieved: she has revealed that she is uncomfortable with her “frumpy” figure.
THE UNDECIDED
When Dieter Siebert watches Angela Merkel take on Gerhard Schröder in tonight’s television debate, he will be one of up to 30m voters thought still not to have made up their minds, writes Justin Sparks.
Like many Germans, Siebert, a 59-year-old nurse, is convinced his country needs a new government but fears Merkel might introduce changes that would make life too painful. “I’m worried she might turn into the German version of Margaret Thatcher,” he said.
Rival candidates should heed the opinions of Siebert and others like him in Celle, a town in Schröder’s home state of Lower Saxony. For the past quarter of a century they have always voted for the winning party.
A panel of undecided voters convened by The Sunday Times suggested many did not know what Merkel stood for. Sebastian Bierman, 32, a lawyer, was concerned that she would not be able to stand up to more experienced leaders such as Tony Blair. “Whether you like him or not Schröder has the guts to put our interests before Washington,” he said.
But support for Schröder was waning at the Schweine-Schulze, his favourite bar. The landlord said: “He’s one of us and we trust him, but the feeling is that his party is not with him.
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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug
Posts: 7595
From: Hollywood, CA USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 09-04-2005 05:25 PM
Oh boy, here we go again... ![[uhoh]](graemlins/uhoh.gif)
IF you would take the time to learn about the San Andreas fault, you would know that fault is not a vertical heave fault but a horizontal slip fault. Which means Los Angeles will someday be a suburb of San Francisco since the west side of the fault is moving horizontally north. To the dismay and disappointment of some, California will not fall into the Pacific Ocean and make beachfront property in Las Vegas. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
The San Andreas is where the Pacific plate joins the North American plate and the EQ system is sometimes referred to as the "Ring of Fire"...just like the IMAX film documents. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
While it is inevitable that there will be more major EQs in SoCal, the local government here is way prepared for a major disaster as was exhibited during the 1994 Northridge quake. Granted an EQ, no matter how big would NOT be as widespread as Katrina's devastation, but nonetheless, I think out local and state government has planned for disaster adequately. ![[thumbsup]](graemlins/thumbsup.gif)
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Mark, Jim, and Bobby: I somewhat agree with your points, but I think Kyle has some valid points as well...although understandably, he expressed them too emotionally. I certainly do feel sorry for the elderly, infirmed, and those honest and "good" people that, for whatever reason and no matter their economic or "class" status are trapped in a very serious and dangerous situation. I would be scared shitless if it were me.
As far as being "poor" and/or "uneducated", while I DO think in many cases it IS laziness, I also think that a lot of those that are "poor" have never had an oppertunituty to "better themselves". I don't think one can paint "ALL" with the same wide brush.
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William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 09-05-2005 06:24 AM
quote: Richard Fowler
Category one for Miami should of not caused so much damage to power and telephone in our region
My brother said the same thing. He said it was astonishing how much damage the Category 1 did in Miami, compared to what he'd seen from hurricanes around the nothern gulf coast.
quote: Mark J. Marshall
Is it unreasonable to expect our federal government to just call, I don't know, Greyhound, and say "We need EVERY available bus in New Orleans right now." And where are the Army troop transports, the school buses from neighboring towns, etc?
Because they're all being kept out by FEMA, for reasons nobody can get out of them. FEMA is now under the Department of Homeland Security.
The New Orleans Times-Picayune, pretty much a conservative paper, has an open letter to the President about FEMA, detailing a few brief monstrosities by FEMA, & calling for the firing of the current head of FEMA:
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054586
The Times-Picayune, which only yesterday was able to publish a print edition since the hurricane, has been publishing its hurricane/local news here.
quote: Mark J. Marshall
And why bus them all the way to Houston? Is there no train track between the two cities? Bus them to a train station, and load up a few trains full of people and get them moving somewhere.
Amtrak offered to get as close as possible, but[link=http://www.aspentimes.com/article/20050905/NEWS/109050013/-1/rss01]FEMA kept them out.[/url]
There has since been after the mayor of New Orleans told the feds to "get off their asses" ONE 7-car Amtrak train run on 9/2 to Lafayette LA.
quote:
The question that should be asked is not, 'where are the rescuers,' but, 'why didn't they evacuate, when they had DAYS to do so?' A category 5 hurricane is bearing down on you, you live 12 ft. below sea level, and you don't consider LEAVING when a mandatory evacuation is ordered?!
Most of them are people living check-to-check, with no resources to leave. A few elected to stay, but most couldn't get out. The traffic out of NOLA was so slow during the evacuation, even with inboud lanes of the interstate diverted to also be outbound, that it became a 4 hour drive from downtown just to the airport, & after it all bogged down & the hurricane was imminent, the order was given for everyone to just hang on & the Superdome was opened as a shelter of last resort. How fast could you evacuate Chicago?
quote:
Is it unreasonable to expect our federal government to just call, I don't know, Greyhound, and say "We need EVERY available bus in New Orleans right now." And where are the Army troop transports, the school buses from neighboring towns, etc? And why bus them all the way to Houston? Is there no train track between the two cities? Bus them to a train station, and load up a few trains full of people and get them moving somewhere. If not Houston, somewhere else - anywhere else.
Realize Mark, a great deal of the train tracks, trains, busses, Search and Rescue choppers, militart equipment, etc in the area were damaged or destroyed by Katrina.
This is just gassing away at guessing. The interstate, all lanes, between New Orleans & Baton Rouge was completely passable. This was how all the press got in, who are apparently the only people FEMA was afraid to stop. There's lots of video of the long, lonely stretches of interstate between New Orleans & BTR after the hurricane. National Guard & relief could & SHOULD have been streaming into NOLA.
quote: Gordon McLeod
Canada yesterday offered any assistance required including military (peacekeepers) and have relief supplies ready but the offer was turned down for the moment
That has been the case throughout.
Chicago's offer of police & firefighting equipment was deflected by FEMA
The Red Cross was ordered by FEMA to stay out
The Northern Command was put in place days before the hurricane, & several states sent guard units, but none could move until authorized by the president. The mayor on New Orleans officially requested all federal assistance on 8/28, .
On & on. An individual group that brought a trailer full of flat bottom boats to use for rescues was turned back.
Military food drops were offered & ignored: "Bill Wattenburg, a consultant for the University of California Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and one of the designers of the earlier food drop programs, said that he has lobbied the administration and the military to immediately begin something similar. He said he was told that the military was prepared to begin, but that it was awaiting a request from FEMA.
"We know very well how to do this, and it's just incomprehensible that we're not," Wattenburg said.' The National Division of Forestry offered air-based forest fire materiel & personnel to fight fires & were refused by FEMA.
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Of course we SHOULD blame our Government and the State of Lousiana for the breaching of the levees
The levees are under the auspices of the Army Corps of Engineers. Almost ALL coastal construction is, but the levees are in particular because they are part of maintaining navigable federal waterways. Not just the river levees, but the Pontchartrain (because when it rains, the river wants to go into the Pontchartrain & then into the residential area), the canal levees, & residential levees, because, along with the pumps, they are all part of the same system. The Corps of Engineers confers with the Levee Board, but nobody touches the levees except the COE. The laws against "interfering with a levee" are so broad as to be a sort of joke when someone's dog poops on the levee.
The Corps of Engineers was part of the disaster planning by emergency agencies (including pre-DHS FEMA), studied what the needs of the levees would be & created a plan, then the OMB slashed their funding for the last 2 years BELOW previous years funding, to 20% of the request -- LESS THAN THE EXPENSE OF MAINTENANCE ALONE.
Levee info
quote:
I was watching a clip of the New Orleans' mayor whining and crying on how the federal and LA state government have not done anything/enough to help that city. What an asshole!
He's blaming EVERYONE ELSE for HIS mismanagement of this whole sad situation and HIS (and his predecessor's) lack of disaster planning and emergency contingencies for a cataclysmic disaster that would ultimately come.
They have known for years that the city is prone to hurricanes AND FLOODS and should have planned ahead instead of yapping and passing the buck. The responsibility for the chaos, deaths, and civil disorder rests SOLELY on HIM and his administration!
No, FEMA is above him when an emergency is declared. Local agencies, like Parish Presidents, have begun defying FEMA orders & even turning back Federal agents & National Guard personnel acting on orders from FEMA to cut power, cease rescues, etc. National Guard has ALWAYS been called out to assist rescues & maintain order in emergencies in hurricanes, etc., because the local law enforcement is neither large enough in number nor having the expertise for civil control. The minuscule number of Guard troops that were in NOLA after the hurricane was about what was put in place for hurricanes in Gulf Shores during their hurricane, nothing near the requirement for a major metropolitan area.
quote:
Yea, I wish someone would go shoot that iddiot Mayor in the ass [thumbsup] so we don't have to listen to him. Perhaps they'll do that in the film version
I don't know how it's playing elsewhere, but across party lines down here, the mayor of New Orleans is showing himself to be the only straightforward person in charge of anything out there. The feds are literally killing people by dragging, pointing, putting off, seizing control & doing nothing, the Guard units can't deploy without authorization from the President, & apparently the President didn't even notice until the mayor of New Orleans publicly cussed them all out. The people in coastal Mississippi are wishing that THEY had someone to get the idiots in charge to get it together, since all the press is in NOLA:
http://www.kron4.com/Global/story.asp?S=3805110
quote: Jim Ziegler
1) Why was the mandaroy evacuation of NO voluntary?
Because they couldn't get everyone out in time.
quote:
2) Why was the city of NO not utilizing buses to evacuate people without cars? After all, they could have used these buses:
Because the citizens with private transportation got on the roads first, & even THEY couldn't all get out[/quote]
quote: Jim Ziegler
3) Why were the interstates leaving NO kept in a 2 way configuration for most of the evacuation? Traffic would have moved much faster having 6 lanes, rather then leave the 3 incomming lanes empty
They did. Contraflow evacuation plans
quote: Jim Ziegler
4) Why did they tells tens of thousands of people to take refuge in the Superdome yet, with the 24 hours advance notice they had, it did not occur to anyone to supply the superdome with food and water?
Because the Superdome was a "shelter of last resort", opened the day of the hurricane. It had stocks of water that I know of, but I hadn't heard that it no stocks of food. The broad question is intended to function primarily accusatory, but is the question "Why wasn't the Superdome stocked 24 hours in advance with enough food & water for 20,000 people to live on for a week?"
quote:
5) Why did the mayor of NO blame FEMA for not securing his city? FEMA is not a law enforcement agency. Why were officers not told to keep control sooner?}
NOLA police were overseeing rescues AND stretching to cover law enforcement. FEMA in ITS PUBLISHED PLAN sends in the National Guard to assist in a declared emergency because the task is huge. NOLA police were doing incredible work with rescues ALONE.
quote: Jim Ziegler
The NOPD (hmmm... NO PD.. it fits) has been one of the most corrupt departments in the nation.
After what? NY, Detroit, LA, Chicago, any large American city? They've been hanging on the job as best they could,
there are now suicides & other
problems with mental strain from dealing with this apocalyptic mess, & quite frankly, they've had a job any
armchair gasbag has never had to DREAM of facing.
[QUOTE=Jim Ziegler]I have heard interviews with both the mayor and the police chief. They think that the way to solve the crisis is to scream and finger point. All they manage to do is make it harder for federal and state agencies to work with them.
The Federal agencies are working AGAINST them, ignoring their requests, getting nothing doen, & apparently the
only way to get anything moving is to publicly list EVERY problem, & publicly identify BY NAME the department
or person responsible. That's finger-pointing & name-calling.
quote:
I did hear on the news last night the Canada was sending police officers to assist in some areas though. Also, other nations do have specialists and supplies as well.[/URL]
I think even a sloppy self-serving memory may recall Gordon McLeod's mention earlier that Canada's offer was turned down. Maybe they'll take them up on it after a few hundred more people die or more infrastructure is destroyed.
quote: Jim Ziegler
The mayor could have done much more to prepare the city for this and minimize loss of life. The city did *NOTHING* to evacuate people who could not leave the city on their own - and then this mayor has the gall to point at Bush and say its all his fault. America is not a nanny state. Local governments and citizens are expected to do what they can to care for their own needs.
No, you're wrong again, but you must be used to that by now. In a state of emergency now, the plan & operation are controlled by FEMA, which is now under the Department of Homeland Security, & much of it cannot be activated without authorization of the President, like deployment of Guard troops & the army. Yes, there was an emergency plan, drawn up by NOLA & FEMA.
[QUOTE=Jim Ziegler]The National Guard is under state control (besides, deploying them before the storm would have rendered those units largely incapable of performing their mission). FEMA and federal troops can do little until the state requests it, but, again, prepositioning units and equipment would have resulted in destroyed equipment and ineffective units
No, even Bush said in trying to CYA that the material & personnel were put in place before the storm, when LA was declared a disaster area BEFORE landfall. The State of Louisisana AND the governor requested their deployment & all emergency services under the state of emergency at landfall .
quote: Jim Ziegler
It takes time to mobilize Guardsman as well - they are not active duty troops on a base - and time to get ships, aricraft, and vehicles together and deployed.
They were on standby when the state of emergency was declared.
quote:
quote: David Buckley When President Bush told "Good Morning America" on Thursday morning that nobody could have "anticipated" the breach of the New Orleans levees, it pointed to not only a remote leader in denial, but a whole political class.
I don't think anyone in power, from the mayor on up, actually expected that levy to break. After all, the storm had lost power and took a swing to the east - everyone thought NO was going to dodge the bullet.
EVERYBODY expected the possibility of a levee breech in a category 3 storm; that's what the levee was ORIGINALLY rated for by the corps of engineers. That possibility was included in the disaster plan created & filed by FEMA. You quite literally are making stuff up.
quote:
quote: David Buckley There are some strange things, like the boss of FEMA has no actual experience of disaster management, which you would have to assume contributed to FEMAs response... Apparently FEMA have been modelling this scenario for over a decade, you would have thought they would be right up in there.
I can't speak to the resume of the head of FEMA, but, agency heads are typically beureucratic posts - which means frequently they are more administrators than anything.
No joke, it's a political appointment & the state, local, & private screaming about FEMA since placed under DHS & the current head are deafening. He has no experience for a post for emergency management; I forgot what his former jobs were.
quote: Phil Hill
.Oft times unsolicited "help" contributes to the confusion and drains resources of those that are "in charge" and trying to get a handle on the situation. Until someone coordinates physical help and donated supplies, help can best be provided by cash contributions to legitimate causes
They weren't doing a thing but consolidating control. Nothing was happening for THREE DAYS of no food, water, or organized rescue, while the feds stopped locals & folks from outside from doing anything, either.
I've been through 3 pages of some misinformation, some disinformation, some questions, & some blatant political spinning. I really don't have any more patience for destructive people who just blast away trying to make things have one political slant or another.
I'm absoloutely sure of Zeigler's party affiliation & who he voted for, he's blowing smoke. Brad can't tell who I voted for, I'm an independent.
I am a screwdriver guy, & don't have the luxury of just saying things are different because it would make me feel better. All I know is you look in the back of the rack & see what burned up. It's obvious here. Two things that absolutely get on my nerves about technical stuff or anything else: people who just make stuff up, & people who don't have to be logical. BS gets on my nerves. Puffing up & presuming to be read as authoritative when gabbing about EMA, the levee system, the situation on the Gulf by someone who knows NOTHING about any of it is really getting me on the boil.
Bush: "Our response was acceptable, the result was not."
Well, if the result was not acceptable, the response sure as hell wasn't. Otherwise, you got the result you wanted.
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