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Author Topic: D-SLR chat
Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-18-2009 01:27 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Bobby Henderson
Many don't have the necessary level of resolution to let you know if you really have sharp focus.
That is a HUGE problem with Panasonic camcorders. You can spin and spin the focus ring for hours and you can't tell any difference whatsoever on the LCD screen which is of lower resolution than the original GameBoy. However for the Canon you can zoom in 10x and really nail down the focus. Also, the final picture is just as bright/dark as it appears on my Live View preview unless I go too bright/dark on the shutter. Basically if I am in a spot where I can adjust a parameter and it will make a difference on the Live View in either direction, it will come out as shown. But when looking through the viewfinder you can't tell ANY difference at all at any level when making changes, so I submit that Live View is more useful than not. Many "professional" photographers poo-poo Live View. I'm not sure if it makes them feel more elite or what, but I see it a lot.

It's kind of funny that we seem to be talking about pictures as super-important/life or death, etc. However I haven't seen any pictures from anyone here aside from maybe Claude (and of course me) that would necessitate such attention to detail like studying histograms, taking 2 hours to set up a single shot, personally checking, interviewing and verifying each individual pixel before pressing the shutter button, etc.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-18-2009 06:01 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, I haven't seen any video screens in the viewfinder that give me any sense that they are close to replacing the optical viewfinder yet...someday maybe.

As for getting the picture right...if you are on a trip or recording an event...it is worth getting it right when you take the picture because when you get back home, on your computer, you can only work with what you have. That picture will record that event, in effect, forever. How important is any one picture...you never know. I'm sure the person that took the picture of my dad in 1930 or so didn't give it much thought but I and many others got to enjoy it (and many others) in the last year. Would we have enjoyed it less if it were of lower quality? I don't know...I doubt it but we certainly would not have enjoyed it less if it were even better. In the picture was a fountain that still exists today, at the house he grew up in, so there is a current/past connection on that too. You never know what detail may be interesting.

There is a place for point-n-shoots and they are getting BETTER all of the time and more convenient too. I don't consider the SLR (digital or otherwise) a point-n-shoot though they can be used that way. One of the BIG advantages that SLRs have over other cameras is the ability to see what image is going to be recorded before it is taken. There is nothing wrong with using that flexibility to improve the quality of the image that will be taken. I know I have no plans to ditch my P-N-S or even my camera phone (I probably take more pictures with that than anything...it is always with me for phone reasons)...but I also want to ensure I take some higher-quality pictures too as well as have more flexibility as to what pictures I can successfully take...the SLRs do that for me.

Steve

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-18-2009 10:38 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad is not overly paranoid.

I am overly paranoid.

I have about 20GB of stuff that I truly care about, and another ~20GB of stuff that I would not be terribly upset about losing.

The stuff-I-care-about gets stored on a mirrored set of disks in my home server (a Sun V120 running Solaris 10, with an external S1 disk array attached, all attached to a good UPS). Every night, this is rsynced to a 3-way ZFS mirror (has three copies of the data, two of which can fail before I lose anything) and fully backed up to LTO-2 tape. There is also a daily ZFS snapshot, so that I can have access to the files as they existed at any day in the last two months, in case of accidental edits or deletions. All the disks are Fujitsu 146GB "enterprise-grade" (whatever that means) hot-swappable SCSI disks. I rotate one tape to and from my desk drawer at my office (office backup) once per week or so. I do test restores from the tapes about once per month. I could probably skip the nightly tape backups, since I have the ZFS snapshots.

The stuff that I don't care as much about lives only on the ZFS filesystem, and does not get backed up to tape.

The total hardware cost for all of this stuff was something like $750 (mostly purchased used on Ebay).

I do not have a digital camera (I do have some digital image files that others have taken and given to me). If I did, I think that I would store everything in both RAW format and in some more standard format (jpeg, tiff, etc.), since RAW format seems to be proprietary to each camera manufacturer, and may not be readable in the long term future.

This approach works, but would be fairly expensive to scale to a larger capacity. It also requires regular maintenance (changing tapes, replacing disks if/when they fail). I tend to upgrade hardware every three years or so. The good part is that it protects against stupidity (file deletion), hardware failure, and local disasters (fire, etc.). I do not generally keep tapes older than a week or so, but that sort of periodic archive backup might be worth doing as well.

This is overkill for most users; "normal people" would probably be better served with an online backup service (or two different services, for better redundancy), although restore times may be an issue for those with large amounts of data.

Unfortunately, there is no good way to store data for any length of time without needing to maintain that storage.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 10-18-2009 10:54 AM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Scott Norwood
This is overkill for most users; "normal people" would probably be better served with an online backup service (or two different services, for better redundancy), although restore times may be an issue for those with large amounts of data.
After what happened to all those T-Mobile Sidekick users, I'm not so comfortable storing valuable data "in the cloud." It might be useful as yet another backup, but I've gotta have copies of the files stored locally too.

quote: Steve Guttag
There is a place for point-n-shoots and they are getting BETTER all of the time and more convenient too.
Point and shoot cameras can capture great looking images. DSLR cameras simply give you more flexibility and capability to capture great looking images as long as you are pairing that DSLR with the kind of lens that can get the job done.

Here is an article about Alex Majoli, an award winning photojournalist who relies on point and shoot cameras from Olympus for his work.

quote: Joe Redifer
It's kind of funny that we seem to be talking about pictures as super-important/life or death, etc. However I haven't seen any pictures from anyone here aside from maybe Claude (and of course me) that would necessitate such attention to detail like studying histograms, taking 2 hours to set up a single shot, personally checking, interviewing and verifying each individual pixel before pressing the shutter button, etc.
As mentioned previously, this forum isn't set up to show off nice looking photos. The 550 pixel width limit for posted images doesn't allow for much. If I recall, forum rules also don't look kindly on posting links to images hosted elsewhere, such as Flickr, Imageshack, etc. Also, a lot of the photography I do is related to work, either in my day job or freelance graphics work, and I don't feel comfortable posting any of that stuff here.

I don't think anyone is talking about photography in terms of "life and death" levels of importance. Nevertheless, it is a creative passion for many people. Most people who enjoy photography are always looking for ways to improve their skills. Often that means coming up strategies for different shooting situations. You're going to have a checklist of stuff to do or avoid if you want to get a certain kind of shot. Sometimes that's going to mean upgrading to better equipment. The pursuit of "getting the shot" can result in your wallet suffering a cashectomy from time to time.

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Bill Enos
Film God

Posts: 2081
From: Richmond, Virginia, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 10-18-2009 06:05 PM      Profile for Bill Enos   Email Bill Enos   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Don't most DSLRs have a point and shoot mode or something close to it that works with basic lenses.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-18-2009 07:11 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
One of the BIG advantages that SLRs have over other cameras is the ability to see what image is going to be recorded before it is taken.
This is true only in regards to framing. The viewfinder doesn't seem to reflect ISO, aperture and shutter settings.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 10-18-2009 09:36 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Another problem is when you're shooting in RAW format the only thing the LCD panel shows is a JPEG-based extracted image. You're not seeing the full dynamic range of the shot. That's why looking at the histogram is important. The histogram is the only thing that will really tell you if you're blowing the highlights. The plain image preview can lie to you. Sure, you can turn on highlight warnings where the blown areas blink, but that doesn't let you know how far you've really over-exposed the image. The histogram will. Any DSLR camera sensor has a lot more levels of sampling in the brighter areas of the picture and skimps on the darker shadow areas. The sensors do not sample image data in a linear fashion. That's why it's important to push exposures to the right and then balance the exposure later in the Camera RAW utility. You get more highlight detail and shadow areas are less prone to noise.

This approach is very backwards to the methods of shooting black and white photography or shooting images on color slide film. You do more to set your exposure for the dark areas of the image when shooting on those kinds of film. With "digital" you get better results shooting in RAW, pushing the exposure and then balancing it in the computer.

quote: Bill Enos
Don't most DSLRs have a point and shoot mode or something close to it that works with basic lenses.
Any DSLR with a function dial on top of the body will at least have a "full auto" mode, commonly indicated by a green rectangle icon. Entry level DSLR bodies will have the full auto mode and other modes with the cutesy icons of a flower, mountains, a running guy and a lady's head. The more expensive DSLR bodies get rid of the icon thingies and replace then with user-configurable custom functions.

Some of the most expensive DSLR bodies get rid of the function dial altogether because that kind of photographer will be shooting entirely in manual mode with shutter priority or aperture priority being used at other times.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-18-2009 10:17 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have no clue how to even enable a histogram on my Canon. I can view it for pictures that I have already taken, but that is completely useless. It needs to be seen before taking the image while making adjustments. I do not have 20 minutes to set up each picture I take. I don't understand what you mean by "to the right". No political discussion allowed!

I really don't want to have to read the manual. Real men never do unless someone pays them to!

EDIT: Nevermind. I forced Jen to figure it out for me because I was much too occupied dealing with my many fans.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 10-18-2009 11:27 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The method of displaying the histogram varies from one DSLR model to the next. At least that is the case with Canon DSLR bodies.

With my old Digital Rebel XTi, I would hit the little "play" arrow and then press the "display" button twice to get the histogram to show. Kind of irritating.

The EOS 5D Mark II has a more "sticky" setting. Press the play button to display the image. Then press the "info" button to change what technical info is displayed when you hit play. If you have the histogram showing and go directly back to taking photos the histogram will show when you hit play again.

Unfortunately, there seems to be no way to see a live preview of the histogram. You have to take a couple test photos in the given shooting environment and then check them. This step can be done while setting up a custom white balance using a 18% gray card or at least something genuinely white.

Here is an article that explains why it is good to "expose to the right" when shooting digital photos in RAW format.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-19-2009 12:06 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nah, I am able to see the live histogram after Jen figured it out as well as the live image behind it. The histogram changes as I move the camera around and point it at different things. You say I should have the "peak" all the way to the right edge of the box? That's interesting, I will make sure to do this and see how my images come out.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-19-2009 12:28 AM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Skew it to the right so that most of the data is in the right 1/5 of the graph without clipping.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 10-19-2009 02:13 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Joe Redifer
Nah, I am able to see the live histogram after Jen figured it out as well as the live image behind it.
This is evidence I'm still learning how to use my camera. I've only had it for 2 months. After doing a little more looking under the Live View settings I figured out to get the live histogram to display along with other stuff like exposure simulation (a live view substitute to pressing the little depth of field button under the lens release tab).

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-19-2009 03:59 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That unmarked button confuses me. It does nothing, so I never press it.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 10-19-2009 08:40 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you have your camera set for a tight aperture (something like f/8 or f/11) you'll see the viewfinder darken considerably, along with the plane of focus spreading out to a much wider area.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-19-2009 09:19 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
But, Joe, if you never press the button, how do you know that the it doesn't to anything when you press it? [Wink]

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