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This topic comprises 8 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 
 
Author Topic: The CAP code
John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 04-20-2000 02:48 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK, then. Let's just ask:

Mr.Pytlak, would you be able/allowed/willing to identify either the theater or print number of a feature from a video tape mailed to you?

I ask in a respectful manner. I really don't know if this would be beyond what you would be allowed to do. If you would rather not, then that will be the end of it as far as I'm concerned, and thanks for sharing what you could.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-20-2000 02:53 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Even if the leaders were removed??? Ok, I know I must be missing something here, but what does the leaders have to do with anything? Other than Deluxe putting their little stickers on the print with the "lab number" (which by the way is different on every reel in a composite print), there is nothing that I've ever seen on a leader to identify. Since leaders are generally not a hot item to bootleg, what would be the purpose of coding them?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-20-2000 03:00 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John Walsh:

I helped develop CAP Code over 18 years ago, and am pleased that it has effectively helped combat film piracy for almost two decades.

All of the proprietary decoding information and technology was given to the MPAA in 1982, and is owned and managed by them.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-20-2000 03:10 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad:

The question was whether CAP Code could be used to trace the origin of a collector's print. I said yes, even if all the other identifying information, including leaders, was removed. My point was that CAP Code could not be removed by simply cutting off the leaders, since it is throughout the length of the print.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-21-2000 05:48 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
John,

Ok, I thought you meant the labs actually went to the trouble to CAP code the leaders! How useless would that be? After all, no bootlegger would ever copy them!

I'm still not done here. Time for you to make me a believer with my Top Ten list of more questions. Please answer each question individually as they are all generic and won't unveil any real secrets (in other words, no dodging the questions please )

#1 The CAP code is "applied" (for lack of a better term) at the lab, correct?

#2 Is this code applied before or after processing?

#3 What is the actual frequency of CAP coding? Obviously it would be on virtually all "major" prints of interest to a bootlegger, but would you say 1 in 10? 8 in 10? Are there actually studios who code each release regardless of how crappy the movie is? (You don't need to say which studio.)

#4 Are all reels of a print CAP coded or just select ones? If only one or two "chosen" reels are coded, are ALL of those reels in every print coded, or does the reel choice vary from print to print?

#5 Does CAP coding have any effect in regards to that one reel that always comes wound reverse of all the rest in the cans, forcing a rewind of that reel before buildup? (Damn I hate that.)

#6 What is the extra cost to CAP code a typical run of say 2500 prints?

#7 Does EACH print really have it's own INDIVIDUAL code, or are there runs where "these 100 prints" have this code and "these 100 prints" have that code?

#8 To distinguish a coded print, would the MPAA need any given single second, or would they have to have a stretch of video, say 10 seconds worth, or a minute's worth, or an entire reel to track it? (Not to worry, what moron bootlegger wouldn't duplicate entire reels?)

#9 Can all labs print this code? In other words, let's say for example (no I'm not implying anything here) that the Deluxe Toronto lab did not have the capability, but the Deluxe lab in Hollywood did. I'm assuming if that were the case, all prints of a given run would have to be done at that lab. Or, could any small lab print this code? Is any special equipment required?

#10 How are replacement reels handled? Let's say for example that I get a print with a bad reel (very common in today's level of quality control by the way) and need a replacement reel. Now, will that replacement reel have the exact same code that the other reels of my print do? Will it have no code? Will it have a separate code that the depot will track to my theater? Will it have a code stating "replacement reel"?

Inquiring minds want to know.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-21-2000 08:26 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is probably a service that's only offered by the "major" Hollywood labs. I have the price/service lists for most of the NYC labs (mainly Technicolor, Du Art, and Magno), and none of them says anything about "CAP code capability." Of course, these labs aren't producing large runs of 35mm release prints for theatrical exhibition, so it's probably not worth their while to have the capability of printing it.

I still fail to see how this could be really useful to anyone in tracking down pirates. Even if we assume that CAP code is real, foolproof, and can be used to trace the source of a bootleg videotape to a specific print number, I don't see the usefulness of it. Suppose that it can be conclusively proven that print #999 was the source for a particular tape. So what? That print would have passed through a dozen or more theatres and probably hundreds of hands (labs, exchanges, trucking companies, etc.) during its first-run life. Even if the source can be traced back to a specific theatre, this seems unlikely to help in finding the actual pirates from the thousands of people who bought tickets to see the film in that theatre.

Besides, it's probably not uncommon for print numbers to be mixed up...I've visited lots of multiplexes that have multiple prints of the same title and don't bother trying to keep the print numbers straight. Not to mention that many older titles (admittedly, often ones that are already on videotape and where bootleg copies from film prints are not a major concern) are "composite" prints made up of footage or odd reels from multiple prints...

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-21-2000 06:15 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
That brings up an interesting point, Scott. I doubt anyone will actively pursue tracking the CAP numbers once the film is on video. I mean, any professional bootlegger is going to be able to beat the Macrovision copy protection anyway, and a studio transfer will beat the pants off of a bootleg copy anyway.

As for composite prints, I've done this for a couple of studios at their request where they had a dozen prints and not a single one was playable. It takes forever to do it RIGHT, but in the end they end up with a couple of nice, complete prints.

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Dwayne Caldwell
Master Film Handler

Posts: 323
From: Rockwall, TX, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 04-22-2000 05:23 PM      Profile for Dwayne Caldwell   Email Dwayne Caldwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If the CAP CODE is so all mighty and powerful an encryption device, then why did the all mighty and powerful Lucas raise such a big stink about such stringent security with his Phantom Menace prints? Maybe Georgey boy's not a believer either.

------------------
The man with the magic hands.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-25-2000 02:09 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello. I'm filling in for Mr. Pytlak at his computer, as he has been "detained" for a while. For now, you can call me "Mr. Vee".

Mr. Miller and others have asked very detailed questions about CAP Code. Fortunately, the MPAA web site has complete information posted on its web site, including a comprehensive guide for film pirates:
http://www.mpaa.org/CAP/piracy-help/index.html

The Federal Bureau of Investigation also has information of use in pirating feature films and circumventing the CAP Code:
http://www.fbi.gov/programs/CAPCode/countermeasures.htm

INTERPOL mirrors the FBI site, with useful translations available in twelve languages for foreign film pirates:
http://www.interpol.lyon.fr/compte-rendu-CAP

You must accept any and all "cookies" these sites place on your computer.

"Inquiring minds" only NEED to know the following:

CAP Code has been successfully used to investigate and prosecute film piracy for 18 years.

A video copy of a print having CAP Code will be tracable to that print.

Film piracy is a crime , and will be aggressively prosecuted.

Now we'll release Mr. Pytlak.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Jason Burroughs
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 654
From: Allen, TX
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-25-2000 03:01 PM      Profile for Jason Burroughs   Email Jason Burroughs   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is probably just adding fuel to the fire, but do measures exist to track pirated video's captured from a "digial" presentation, must like the CAP for film? I can see how piracy could very easily become rampant with the digital technologies. Movies being shipped via DVD's? those would so easily "disappear" Its already been proven that encryption that the MPAA thought to be very difficult to break, was infact easily broken and distributed(DeCSS). Also if someone was to simply point a video camera at a screen that showing a "digial presentation" would they have the flicker associated when the same is done with film, (due to different frame rates)?

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-25-2000 06:31 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Mr. Vee, your comments would be taken much more seriously if your links actually worked.

(John, if you can read this, we're coming to get you armed with some of that unbreakable Vision stock!)

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-25-2000 06:50 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
At least with the DLP system, there _is_ no flicker. The refresh rate is 24fps for film-originated material (though that might be able to be changed...I don't know), but there's no dark-screen interval between frames as is the case with projected film images.

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Dwayne Caldwell
Master Film Handler

Posts: 323
From: Rockwall, TX, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 04-25-2000 08:29 PM      Profile for Dwayne Caldwell   Email Dwayne Caldwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Any new form of encryption is going to be presented as a challenge to pirates. Valenti's an idiot if he thinks he can scare away or intimidate bootleggers with threats of new and improved encryption that's supposedly unbreakable for these DLP movies. If I were a pirate, I know I'd laugh at him. Hell! I'll laugh at him away. Piracy's gonna be just as big a problem in the DLP arena as it is in film right now. I'm sure I'm stating the obvious, but I'm kinda curious as to whether or not the MPAA's ever consulted or worked with ex-pirates to create some of these encryption programs. Remember in Sneakers how the banks hired the hackers to try to break into their databases to help point out and patch up the flaws in their programming? I know I watch too many of these espionage/techno-thriller movies, and I'm probably getting carried away now, but I'm just wondering if some of these hackers have ever been on the MPAA payroll or helped improve the CAP code. Care to comment John? Don't do it if you're not allowed. I don't want you disappearing on us again.

------------------
The man with the magic hands.

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Tyler Skinner
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 115
From: Pa
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 04-25-2000 11:53 PM      Profile for Tyler Skinner   Email Tyler Skinner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
RE: Brad, on your questions on how the code was printed on the film.

Didn't I hear on a previous thread somewhere that most films aren't printed in the same lab, but each separate reel could be printed at a different lab?

How could a code be printed on an entire print if the reels were printed at seperate houses? Sounds like a lot of confusion to me.

Also, and don't ask how I got this info, but bootleggers usually don't include the credits because they think the print # is printed in the credits, or on the ratings band at the end of the movie. I think this is more of a possiblility than a frequency code throughout the film.

tyler

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-26-2000 12:38 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, I can answer that first one. A given print will have all of it's reels printed at the same lab.

On the credit issue, I saw a couple of bootlegged tapes about five years ago and I wrote the lack of credits off to the fellow trying to grab his camera and get the hell out of the theater before he gets caught. I would think if such a CAP code really exists and isn't just an empty scare tactic, that it wouldn't just be constricted to the credits.

John, what about my top 10 list of questions???

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