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Topic: CDS-Equipped Theatres
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Michael Coate
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1904
From: Los Angeles, California
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 08-17-2003 07:50 PM
quote:
Leave it to the ad copy people to really clarify things; what does Digital Magnetic Stereo mean?
As Paul mentioned, I interpret the ad to mean the print was 35mm 4-track mag, with the content being the (then) new digital re-recording.
Sure, ad copy folks often come across as being clueless or who deliberately mislead, but here was a case where they knew that the word "digital" could be used as a buzzword...just like it often is today.
quote:
the print I saw had to have been either optical or magnetic in general release.
quote:
Very interesting. It would be fun to actually research this because I was under the impression that because the critics were so outraged that Disney had tampered with the original film that they pulled it almost immediately after its initial digital playdates.
Not sure if this is what you're referring to, but allow me to take a stab at listing the release history of Fantasia, noting the audio formats for each release. You guys can figure out which versions you've screened and what their differences may have been.
1940 Original Release
Fantasound
Optical mono
1946 Re-release
Optical mono
1956 Re-release
Mag stereo
Optical mono
1963 Re-release
Mag stereo
Optical mono
1969 Re-release
Mag stereo
Optical mono
1977 Re-release
Mag stereo
Optical mono
1982 Re-release
Mag stereo (Dolby)
Mag stereo (non-Dolby?)
Optical stereo (Dolby)
Optical mono (?)
1985 Special Screenings
Digital interlock experiments
1985 Re-release
Mag stereo (Dolby)
Optical stereo (Dolby)
1990 Re-release
Optical stereo (Dolby A)
Optical stereo (Dolby SR)
70mm six-track (standard baby boom format?)
70mm six-track (Fantasound)
Sources:
American Cinematographer (February 1991)
Disney A To Z: The Updated Official Encyclopedia, 1996
Film collectors' one-sheet collections
several newspaper advertisements
Additional comments:
There were a limited number of "Fantasound" 70mm prints created for the 1990 re-release -- the engagement at the Cinerama Dome in Hollywood was among them -- and the American Cinematographer article goes into detail on its special three-screen, three-surround, non-standard channel configuration.
Many of the newspaper ads from the '63, '69, and '77 re-releases boasted that the film could be heard "For The First Time In Stereophonic Sound!"
Re the 4-track mag prints - I don't know if they were mag-only or mag-optical or both via multiple inventory.
A Deseret News (Salt Lake City, Utah) newspaper article from '77 mentioned that year's re-release being available with 70mm blow-up prints. I suspect the article's author was confusing "35mm 4-track" with "70mm 6-track"...but you never know.
The book Wide Screen Movies (1988) claims Tommy (1975) was the film released in the most sound formats. I think a case has been made that Fantasia may hold that distinction (particularly if one factors in the numerous print format differences -- Academy, Academy cropped to 1.85:1, Superscope, 1.37:1 optically positioned within 1.85:1, 70mm blow-up, etc.).
To add further cloudiness to the many details contributed by all of us within this thread, Wide Screen Movies also claims: "Re-edited, rescored by Irwin Kostal, and re-issued in 1984 in 1.75x1 with digitally mastered Dolby Stereo."
[ 08-18-2003, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Michael Coate ]
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 08-19-2003 05:10 AM
Wow, Michael, I am up in my seat applauding. Great research. The funny thing is, my experience with Disney over the years, and that includes many long drawn out battles over this particular title, trying specifically to get mag prints...the list would give one the impression that they had mag prints galore, and when Dolby entered the picture -- bingo, Dolby was added to the inventory, any thing you wanted. When in fact, all I ever wanted, was to run it in 4trk mag. in the 70s before Dolby and after Dolby, in ANY stereo format -- Dolby or mag. Yet, I always got the same answer -- Nope. No stereo prints."
I once saw a print inventory list for EARTHQUAKE and there were a bunch of formats supposedly struck. But just try and get one of those 4 track mag/ops that they claim there were dozens made, all the while the NY branch manager is insists they never had any such prints in their inventory.
Same with FANTASIA. Well into the late 70s, I had to play it on two different occasions with only mono prints available. And the very curious thing was that this was at a time when the list says there were mag prints in 63, 69, 77, and 82. Well, if there were that many re-releases, all with mag prints, then all I can say is that some executive was selling them under the table to collector friends because they never made it to Tippy Spirty's office (yes, was his real name) at Buena Vista NYC. All I ever got from him was the same story, "Frank, how many times we gotta go over this....all we got is 'regular' prints. Just play it loud, kid, no one will know the difference. Besides, why are you always bugging me about mag prints anyway; none of my other theatres ever wants 'em." (I swear that is an almost verbatim quote -- it's burned into my brain cells -- I used to have to bite the tip of my tongue so as not to cuss at him over the phone). And if all these mag prints were being played, how is it that in order for me to be able to get a mag print, I had to futz around with the "Superscope" release back in the early 70s? And they didn't even want to give THAT to me 'cept I was BEGGING them.
I am not sure of some of those dates. The Kostal version was released in 85 and the list claims that it had mag prints? That kind of goes against what I had always heard -- that mag prints had fallen off the radar earlier than that, and in fact, Striesand had to fight to get a lab to make a few mag prints of YENTL because by 83, predating the Kostal release, no one was making mag prints. Or at least that's what I understood.
Anyway, as I said, even though they may have MADE mag prints of the Kostal version, it is hard to determine how much play it ever got because of the very bad press issue. They simply may not have ever let anyone play it after the press releases in first run.
I was so excited by the Kostal presentation at the Ziegfeld that it hadn't closed but a day there and I was on the phone hounding BV for a booking. Amazingly, it was already 'out of service.'
I wish they would release the Kostal version on DVD -- that will settle it once and for all.
Again, thanks; Mike -- very cool research.
Frank
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Paul Linfesty
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1383
From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-22-2003 12:09 AM
quote:
1969 Re-release
Mag stereo
Optical mono
WAS the 1969 re-release in mag stereo?
BTW, from the FANTASIA Legacy DVD, is the following release schedule of FANTASIA and a description of each version:
ORIGINAL ROADSHOW VERSION
November 12, 1940
TRT: 02:04:22
MODIFIED RECUT
January 10, 1941
This date corresponds with RKO Pictures’ takeover of the Roadshow Release. The 20-second running time difference may simply be the addition of an RKO Radio Distribution credit tag.
TRT: 02:04:42
EDITED “SHORT” VERSION
January 6, 1942
This is the brutally cut 81-minute version, released nationwide to a bewildered public with the sales line “Fantasia Will Amazia.”
TRT: 01:20:59
1947 POPULAR VERSION
Jul, 1947
For this first national re-release, the animated sequences remained mostly intact, while the interstitial segments of Stokowski, Deems Taylor, and the orchestra were shortened, voiced over, or removed. This cut was the basis of the 1990 restoration and re-release.
TRT: 01:55:45
SUPERSCOPE VERSION
February 7, 1956
For this second reissue, the picture element was optically converted from the Academy Standard 1.33x1 to the 2x1 SuperScope aspect ratio. This resulted in cropping and reframing of the visual images. The original Fantasound optical audio tracks were transferred to magnetic media, and the film was released in stereophonic sound.
TRT: 01:55:45
FOUR TRACK STEREO VERSION
February 20, 1963
Though unclear in existing records, this third reissue appears to have been available to exhibitors in both SuperScope and standard versions, both with magnetic stereo tracks. The additional 53 seconds in this version’s running time is unexplained.
TRT: 01:56:38
FOURTH REISUUE
December 17, 1969
Although it was for this release that censorship deletions of embarrassing stereotypes in the “Pastoral” segment were made, the running time noted is the same as the foundational 1947 cut.
TRT: 01:55:45
FIFTH CUTTING
1976
Not technically a re-release, since Fantasia was offered fairly perpetually for exhibition from the mid-1960’s until the late 1970’s (usually in “art” houses in college towns). This was a re-cutting, replacing the RKO Radio logo with the Buena Vista Distribution logo. (RKO had not distributed Fantasia since its 1947 release, but their logo had not been removed, since it involved re-shooting the credit card.
FIFTH REISSUE
April 15, 1977
This was a national re-release with a new advertising campaign highlighting the magnetic stereo sound to an audience that had rediscovered the wonder of movies in stereo. The reason for the two and a half-minute cut in running time is unclear.
TRT: 01:53:10
SIXTH REISSUE
April 2, 1982
In this heavily promoted re-release, the Stokowski track was replaced, and famed Broadway and Hollywood conductor/arranger Irwin Kostal re-recorded the entire score in an all-new digital Dolby optical stereo version. The interstitials were completely removed, replaced with breathless narration and nondescript inter-titles.
TRT: 01:53:10
SEVENTH REISSUE
02/08/85
TRT: 01:54:16
EIHTH REISSUE
(50th Anniversary) Edition
1990
The picture element was completely restored from as many of the original camera elements as still existed. The original Stokowski soundtrack was digitally restored and rejuvenated. This cut used the 1947 edition as a prototype, although through reframing and repeating shots, the censorship deletions of the 1969 version were again made, but much more subtly.
TRT: 01:55;45
RETSORED ROADSHOW VERSION
June, 2000
For a companion showing with FANTASIA 2000 at the Animation Film Festival in Annesy, France, the original 1940 Roadshow Release visual elements were reassembled. Much of the interstitial audio was missing, and was re-recorded by Corey Burton. For the sake of audio continuity, even the existing Deems Taylor narration had to be replaced. Further audio and visual restoration to the animated segments was executed for video release.
TRT: 02:04:22
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 08-22-2003 04:19 AM
The material states: "since Fantasia was offered fairly perpetually for exhibition from the mid-1960’s until the late 1970’s (usually in “art” houses in college towns)."
Well, maybe on a parallel planet it was offered fairly perpetually, but not in Brooklyn, NY. As this is a work that I have always seen as Disney's greatest achievement and I run an art house, I would play this title EVERY YEAR if only I could. Fact is, Buena Vista hardly EVER had this title "in service" and I have a file folder two inches thick with letters that span two decades documenting battle upon battle just to get a booking -- letters that went all the way up to the president of Disney to vice presidents (lots to Phil Barlow) trying to hammer out a simple bookings. So to say it was "perpetually" in release is not the reality I know first hand. And again, the idea that magnetic prints were readily available is not my experience. I will gladly bow to anyone who thinks they can pick up a phone, make a call to Buena Vista and book a mag print of FANTASIA and then add that you want the Kostal version.....in 4 track mag. Anyone who wants to try should record the response so it can be shared with the forum. It will be a very interesting conversation if you can get past any of these sentences in the first ten seconds, "Oh, it's not in service." or "Sorry, there are no prints." or "What version? That's been discontinued and every print has been distroyed."
Mind you, you will hear these all the while there are those prints just sitting in the depots.
I guest what I am saying is, don't be fooled by the fact that filmology lists suggest there were mag prints readily avaliable for years. There's the print inventory lists on paper, and then there's reality of what's really available to a theatre. There are marketing people at distribution who, for whatever irrational reason, seem to think it makes sense to take titles 'out of service,' even when anyone can rent the video for two bucks. No doubt about it, this is a weird business.
Frank
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Michael Coate
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1904
From: Los Angeles, California
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 08-24-2003 04:50 PM
CDS update.... For those who are bored, read another thread. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) For those with an interest, allow me to share a few pieces of information recently referenced. At the tail-end of this post, an updated theatre list will appear which will include a few newly-added New York and international sites.
quote:
It was the film "Days of Thunder" that had the massive failure at Mann's National Theatre in Westwood. I believe it was a heat issue of the unit in the booth.
From Variety, July 4, 1990:
"New Digital Sound System Snafus At 'Thunder' Sites"
A glitch in a heralded new sound system forced several theaters to pull prints of "Days Of Thunder" over the weekend.
Officials of the joint venture of Eastman Kodak and Optical Radiation Corporation could not be reached for an explanation of the failure of their Digital Cinema Sound [sic]. But film's distrib, Paramount, confirmed that the much-advertised digital prints were pulled from at least three theaters.
Key houses lost were Mann's Chinese Theater in Hollywood and its National in Westwood, and Pacific's Cinema Theater in Corte Madera in Northern California. It's understood the same problem may have developed at Pacific's Lakewood house, but no one at the exhibitor's office could confirm.
A Cinema staffer said some "Thunder" dialog began dropping out in the sixth screening after the Wednesday opening. Par quickly arranged for the houses to switch to 70mm Dolby prints.
Digital Cinema Sound [sic] also is used on "Dick Tracy," but a Buena spokesman said that film has had no troubles, suggesting to some that the "Thunder" blunder may have been due to the rush to get pic ready for its opening.
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quote:
Didn't Final Approach have its first limited screenings in the fall of 1991? I remember seeing NY and LA ads for a short engagement then (I'm not 100% positive, but I'm pretty sure the film played at the Gemini Twin).
OK, I looked this up in The New York Times, and it indeed ran at the Gemini Twin. The engagement began March 13, 1992. I suppose it could've played in NY on more than one occasion, but if it did, it wasn't at the same time as the December 1991 L.A. run.
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quote:
The IMDB shows a 7/24/91 French date that seems weird given that's not the time of Cannes.
What, the French don't ever go to the movies except at the Cannes Film Festival??
.
From Variety, July 29, 1991 ("Digital Demise For 70mm?"):
Final Approach was slated to open July 24 in Paris at five theaters, all equipped for digital sound.
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Re the Criterion Center in NY and whether it had CDS. Since no substantial evidence has been revealed as to this theatre's CDS status, I have a theory. Perhaps people are remembering it as an early digital sound venue because (1) Terminator 2 ran there (in 70mm-magnetic) at the same time several other New York area theatres were running it in CDS, and (2) the Criterion was among the first wave of theatres to install Dolby Digital in 1992.
.
Also from Variety on July 29, 1991 re Terminator 2's CDS release:
Data provided by theaters indicate that 35mm prints using CDS digital sound grossed 60.8% more than the 35mm analog stereo prints playing head to head at the same multiplexes booking the TriStar release in its first week.
Varying size of "T2" venues plus soldout screenings at all houses that week may blunt the significance of that figure. But for the second week of the run, in which fewer sellout performances were recorded, the CDS screens outgrossed their analog counterparts by 87.1%.
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Re the first 35mm-CDS releases. From " 'Doors' Breaks On Through 35mm CDS," Variety, March 1, 1991:
Carolco's "The Doors" film today becomes the first to open in 35mm Cinema Digital Sound in multiple theaters.
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In a May 1990 Los Angeles Times article, it was predicted that over 100 theaters would be outfitted with Cinema Digital Sound by Christmas of that year. A June Variety article mentioned the initial marketing strategy was to equip 150 theatres with CDS.
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Re CDS in the United Kingdom. An August 1991 article in Screen International mentioned two theatres in Thurrock having been outfitted with CDS. (The two cinemas identified were the same two mentioned earlier in the thread.) However, no mention was made of any London theatres having the system, and the article was written after the release of T2.
.
Theatres That Were Equipped To Play Cinema Digital Sound (CDS) 1990-1992
North America
ARIZONA
Scottsdale: UA Scottsdale Pavilions
CALIFORNIA
Century City: AMC Century 14 (two screens)
Corte Madera: Pacific's Cinema
Emeryville: UA Emery Bay
Hollywood: Mann's Chinese
Hollywood: Pacific's Cinerama Dome
Hollywood: Pacific's El Capitan
La Mesa: Pacific's Grossmont Trolley
Lakewood: Pacific's Lakewood Center
Lakewood: Pacific's Regency 8
Marina del Rey: UA Cinema
Newport Beach: Edwards Newport
Pasadena: Pacific's Hastings
San Diego: UA Horton Plaza
San Francisco: UA Coronet
San Francisco: UA Galaxy
San Rafael: Pacific's Regency
Santa Ana: AMC MainPlace
West Hollywood: GCC Beverly Connection
Westwood: GCC Avco (two screens)
Westwood: Mann's National
Westwood: Pacific's Crest
Westwood: UA Coronet
COLORADO
Denver: UA Continental
FLORIDA
Miami: UA The Falls
GEORGIA
Atlanta: Cineplex Odeon Lenox Square
MARYLAND
Bethesda: UA Theatres Bethesda
NEW JERSEY
West Windsor: UA Movies At Market Fair
NEW YORK
Brooklyn: UA Movies At Sheepshead Bay
Manhattan: Cineplex Odeon Ziegfeld
Manhattan: Guild Embassy 1
Manhattan: Loews 84th Street Six
Manhattan: UA Gemini Twin
TEXAS
Dallas: UA Plaza
Fort Worth: UA Hulen
.
Europe
BELGIUM
Brussels: Decatron Kinepolis (two screens)
DENMARK
Copenhagen: Imperial Bio
Copenhagen: Palads
FRANCE
Paris: Kinopanorama
GERMANY
Munich: Kinema
GREECE
???
ITALY
???
SWEDEN
???
SWITZERLAND
Lausanne: ???
Zurich: ???
UNITED KINGDOM
West Thurrock: UCI Cinemas
West Thurrock: Warner Village Cinemas
Industry and private screening rooms have not been included.
[ 09-08-2003, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Michael Coate ]
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Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002
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posted 09-03-2003 01:21 PM
While ads are not always reliable, a CDS advertisement in the August, 1990 issue of Boxoffice magazine, lists the following theaters as being CDS capable as part of the introduction:
AMC's Century 14, Los Angeles
AMC's Main Place, Santa Ana
Edward's Newport, Newport Beach, CA
GC Beverly Connection, Los Angeles
Loew's 84th St, NYC
Mann's Chinese, Hollywood
Mann's National, Westwood
Pacific's Cinema, Marin County
Pacific's Crest, Westwood
Pacific's Lakewood Center, Lakewood, CA
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