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Topic: Dolby Unveils 7.1 Channel Sound for Cinemas - Premiering with Toy Story 3

Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-21-2010 12:16 AM

quote: Manny Knowles
please note the correct spelling of "unveils"

True, but you hardly used any capital letters or punctuation in your post which is just as annoying for some readers. [Big Grin]

And... "chanel" didn't bug you?

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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 06-21-2010 10:46 AM

quote: Paul Linfesty
According to the Ad in Sunday's NY Times, Regal's E-Walk Stadium 13 is showing TS3 in 7.1 Digital Surround and City Cinema's Village East Cinemas is showing it in Dolby Surround 7.1.

It's unfortunate that somehow, they were able to coordinate newspaper advertising for 7.1, which requires advance planning to make newspaper deadlines, but most of these theaters are dead silent about 7.1 on their web sites, which is something they're able to change very quickly and usually in-house. [Frown]

Maybe if 7.1 takes off, we can get this coordinated so that the information can actually get to the majority of the viewing audience, which isn't looking at a newspaper for their information.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-21-2010 07:01 PM

quote: Manny Knowles
on the other hand, we've seen Le and Re go away...we've seen SDDS8 come and go...we've seen EX come and go...and now there's this system being announced ALMOST AS IF it was created just for this one movie. I dunno...

I've been pretty underwhelmed by how "Dolby Surround 7.1" has been marketed, but then this isn't surprising when one looks back and sees the luke-warm efforts at pushing Dolby Digital•EX and DTS-ES as well as leaving the capabilities for more channels of sound in the DTS-XD10 and DTS-XD20 processors totally overlooked.

I think stadium seating, digital projection and lately digital 3D have taken a lot of attention away from showing movies with great quality, immersive sound.

Digital surround sound used to be a big deal. Cinema Digital Sound had its first advertised public showings with Dick Tracy 20 years ago as of last week (June 15, 1990). Considerably more hype was put behind "Dolby Stereo Digital," "The Digital Experience" and "Breaking the Digital Sound Barrier."

When digital projection was introduced in 1999 the audio side was the only thing that offered any real improvement, in the form of linear PCM 5.1 audio rather than lossy compressed 5.1. The hype was all about the digital picture -roughly the equivalent of watching 720p HDTV. The "digital" buzzword is the only thing that continued to be hyped, nothing really specific such as the change from 1.2K to 2K quality or audio going from 20-bit LPCM to 24-bit and even 24/96 in some cases. Let's not do anything to get some nerdy tech freaks start geeking out in the lobby.

7.1 surround has a legitimate place in any commercial movie theater auditorium. 5.1 has some serious limitations and 7.1 definitely overcomes that with providing two discrete back wall surround channels.

I don't know if 7.1 surround will take off big or if it will just become a kind of hidden and only occasionally used feature in theaters. I think the format's chances are certainly a lot better than SDDS-8 because the same 7.1 quad surround track can be used in home theater via Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD and LPCM. Most new audio video receivers of any good quality level have support for 7.1.

It was odd how home theater offered better support for Dolby Surround•EX and DTS-ES. More DVD releases featured Dolby•EX branded audio tracks than theatrical releases. We have already seen a few movies be released 5.1 only theatrically and then appear on Blu-ray boasting 7.1 audio. Hopefully that trend will now change so sound designers can mix a movie in 7.1 right from the start and having the 7.1 track playing in the theater rather than throwing in a couple extra audio channels after the fact for Blu-ray release.

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Jonathan Goeldner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1360
From: Washington, District of Columbia
Registered: Jun 2008

posted 06-21-2010 10:25 PM

but has SDDS8ch really come and gone, according to SDDS' website, 'Despicable Me' has and is being released in 8-channel sound - since it IS possible for some of the audio processors to accomodate up to 16 channels of sound, I think that the big ultrawide screens that are becoming more common, the addition of left center and right center channels of sound to digital projection would be highly beneficial. Datasat (DTS) just released a press release that their AP20 is 7.1 compatiable (but we've known that along [Wink]

that's really not new news )

"Datasat Digital Entertainment, Inc. announced on Monday the compatibility of the Datasat™ AP20 16-channel audio processor with the new 7.1 discrete surround format utilized by Walt Disney Pictures and Pixar Animation Studios on the latest Woody and Buzz installment, Toy Story 3. By utilizing the AP20 16-channel audio processor, Datasat has assisted cinemas in upgrading to the new discrete surround format"

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 06-22-2010 06:24 AM

Where are you getting that Despicable Me is SDDS-8 ? It is just listed as an SDDS release, nothing about 8-channel. Surfs Up is the last listed 8-channel movie that I can find on the SDDS site and that was from June of 2007, of which there were three 8-channel films.

I agree that 5-screen channels is a great format and one I prefer over even the second surround...however the industry does not seem has concerned about them. In theory, channels 7/8 in DCinema are supposed to be LC/RC. It is one of the reasons Surround 7.1 uses 11/12.

Steve

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-22-2010 10:44 PM

One of the problems is there is no foreseeable use of 5 screen channels with home theater. The movie industry is preoccupied with home video sales. Four surround channels can be used in home theater setups and it may be a long time (if ever) that five stage channels get supported in home theater sound formats. The discrete 7.1 formats on Blu-ray already pre-date "Dolby Surround 7.1" by more than 2 years. Home video actually may have driven the advent of four channel surround 7.1 in commercial movie theaters. Pretty freaking odd.

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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 06-23-2010 01:58 PM

quote: Bobby Henderson
I think stadium seating, digital projection and lately digital 3D have taken a lot of attention away from showing movies with great quality, immersive sound.

Digital surround sound used to be a big deal.

At the risk of offending some here, I blame the theaters.

This is a sticky subject with me, as I've been encouraging theaters to advertise their digital sound formats since 1996 when I started The BigScreen Cinema Guide!

They wouldn't advertise which format they were using, when the formats had definite quality differences (Dolby Digital constantly hiccupped at reel changes in theaters, around here, at least). The excuses I was given was that they didn't want to advertise one digital sound format, only to have to move the show to a different screen that had a different format, or no digital at all.

They couldn't be bothered to run the digital sound trailers before the movie, so the audience wasn't even being educated about what it was that they were hearing. A major marketing opportunity lost, but I was told that the theater couldn't be bothered splicing on a digital sound trailer, and then have to change it if they had to move the film to another screen.

Theaters (around here) never seemed to get the fact that running that digital sound trailer was part of the show. Of course, the fact that DTS' flying disc trailer wasn't all that great, but the Dolby ones, and even the few SDDS ones I saw, were pretty good. I still remember the Dolby Train trailer before The Fugitive! (There was an SDDS one featuring Zorro that made good use of the screen channels)

That lack of effort on the part of the theaters continues to this day with Dolby EX and DTS ES never being advertised, and the 7.1 sound for Toy Story 3 being treated like a mix between a state secret and a footnote in a few newspaper ads that few people under the age of 60 ever saw.

All that creates a sense of apathy from the theater industry, a lost opportunity to market an advantage to the audience, and it tells studios that it's not worth their time to invest in better sound formats.

Fortunately for movie fans, the studios didn't give up on the home theater market, so we get treated to better sound mixes at home than the theaters can deliver.

I'm sure it's a shining example of how much I don't know about running a movie theater, but if I did, I would be advertising the hell out of the technical capabilities of my screens at every turn. Digital Sound and Digital Projection trailers would be run before every show, the theater's policy trailer would impress, and everyone would know that the experience at my theater blows the socks off anything they could possibly install in their home!

Unfortunately, it seems to be in the business, all that has to be put to the wayside in favor of making sure that there's room for more advertising crap in the lobby and that there are at least 20 minutes' worth of ads before the movie begins.

Grrr, I told you this was a sore subject...

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-23-2010 03:25 PM

I think the problem with mediocre or bad movie theater sound rests largely with the big wigs operating most movie theater chains. As long as the sound system is working they're happy. They're not interested in how well the sound system is working. There is a cookie-cutter philosophy at work. A lot of the same kinds of speaker enclosures, amps, etc. are put into auditoriums of various sizes. The sound system isn't really designed and tailored for a specific room. The gear is just cobbled together and however it sounds is however it's going to sound.

When the right combination of speakers, amps and other gear is chosen for a room and it is properly set up (EQ-ed, "tuned", etc.) the results can be very impressive.

This was supposed to be the point of THX. But the THX philosophy really began to rapidly erode with the arrival of stadium seating. It was already bad enough that some theaters would have a THX-certified house with Dolby SR optical and then stick DTS in a different room ("we can't put two gimmicks in the same house"). Some theater executives had no better understanding of sound systems and audio tracks than the customers even though it was part of their job to know better. Oh well. I think the THX folks also watered down their requirements in order for many stadium seated houses to fall within the spec. The funny thing is most theater chains chose to incorporate stadium seating instead of THX.

Theater managers and staff members can be culprits in goofing up a theater's sound. They need to notice and take action when parts of a theater's sound system need adjustment or repair even if no one in the audience notices. The higher ups need to be willing to fund sound system repairs if they're needed. And the popcorn jockey or whoever else doesn't need to be farting with any of the knobs when a theater has already been properly tuned.

Finally, some of the customers are to blame for goofed up theater sound. When I see a movie in a commercial theater I expect dynamic and even startling levels of sound. Unfortunately, certain people prefer movie audio dynamics to be on par with their old TV set at home. So the manager ends up having to turn down the fader. Score another point for home theater where you can set the audio however loud you want it. With sub-standard theater construction and/or maintenance the sub-bass speakers may be turned down very low to eliminate sound leakage between auditoriums or the subwoofers may have blown and stayed broken for months on end.
[Roll Eyes]

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-23-2010 09:23 PM

quote:
I would be advertising the hell out of the technical capabilities of my screens at every turn. Digital Sound and Digital Projection trailers would be run before every show, the theater's policy trailer would impress, and everyone would know that the experience at my theater blows the socks off anything they could possibly install in their home!

I too don't understand why theatres don't advertise their sound systems on marquees, on the screen or wherever. We played all 4 of the different DTS logos, and when we switched to Dolby we started using the Dolby "Train" logo. We have run a sound logo on nearly every show since we went stereo, beginning with the "Ultra Stereo" logo. I hear the Dolby "Train" is not available for digital cinema....bad Dolby, bad Dolby!! [Mad]

We also use a Dolby logo on our marquee, but we have a triangular marquee with 2 reader boards and we only have ONE logo. Do you think Dolby will send us another one? They will not. I've sent in their form, I've emailed with no response, etc. I'm sure it's because of our one-screen size, but it's still irritating to be ignored.

So there are theatres out there willing to advertise what they've got, but a little help from the manufacturers would be nice.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 06-23-2010 09:34 PM

quote:
I hear the Dolby "Train" is not available for digital cinema....bad Dolby, bad Dolby!!

Dolby Digital is not available for digital cinema. It's just raw linear PCM in a standard configuration. Absolutely nothing special about it at all as far as being Dolby, etc.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 06-23-2010 10:28 PM

Mike, Dolby has a "Dolby Digital Cinema" logo for people who use Dolby servers that is quite awesome.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-23-2010 11:32 PM

It's been a shame little if anything has been done to advertise multichannel LPCM in digital cinema. It is superior to the lossy compressed Dolby Digital, DTS and SDDS formats, but doesn't have a slick brand name.

Texas Instruments has a couple of DLP snipes which look cool, but they say nothing about the uncompressed 5.1 audio included in the deal. Christie also has a fairly cool trailer too, but I wouldn't expect that one to mention sound at all (even though the audio on it is pretty good).

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Jonathan Goeldner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1360
From: Washington, District of Columbia
Registered: Jun 2008

posted 06-24-2010 09:20 PM

I recently received an email from a Cinemark (Egyptian 24) representative and he states:

"The XD screen recently went through the 7.1 surround sound upgrade in preparation for the release of Toy Story 3. The upgrade was Cinemark wide, so you will find that most or all of the XD locations throughout Cinemark will have gone through the same upgrade."

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 06-25-2010 09:14 AM

quote: Scott Jentsch
They couldn't be bothered to run the digital sound trailers before the movie, so the audience wasn't even being educated about what it was that they were hearing. A major marketing opportunity lost, but I was told that the theater couldn't be bothered splicing on a digital sound trailer, and then have to change it if they had to move the film to another screen.

Try working for a theater that put a Dolby Digital trailer on every print, even if the print only contained an optical track, and when you bring it to the booth manager's attention, his response is, "Oh, that just advertises that we have Dolby Digital in every house, it doesn't necessarily mean this film is Dolby Digital. We use that because we don't have policy trailers."

[Mad]

quote: Bobby Henderson
Finally, some of the customers are to blame for goofed up theater sound. When I see a movie in a commercial theater I expect dynamic and even startling levels of sound. Unfortunately, certain people prefer movie audio dynamics to be on par with their old TV set at home.

I agree with you in that it's a movie theater; it's supposed to be loud. However, in terms of customer service, what else are you supposed to do when a customer complains that it is too loud and asks if you can turn it down?

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-25-2010 09:26 AM

I like sound-format trailers, too.

I have been able to get DTS trailers in the past without much difficulty. Dolby, on the other hand, has not responded to multiple letters requesting trailers and including the serial numbers of the processors installed in a particular theatre.

Even if they were easy to get, sound format trailers tend not to be played in multiplexes, as few multiplexes have the same sound format in every auditorium and prints tend to get moved around. Many such places do not employ full-time projectionists, and managers are not likely to attempt to remove or change the sound-format trailer whenever a print moves or if a digital track is found to be bad. This is not a matter of anyone being lazy--it is a matter of improper theatre staffing.

I think that we can all agree that it is preferable to not show sound-format trailers at all, rather than to show incorrect ones.

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