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Author Topic: all digital projection theatres
Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-07-2007 06:51 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Lyle Romer
The studios are telling the independents either change over or close.
Really? Who is saying this? When? Why?

$10k isn't cheap, especially since it won't sell any more tickets and exhibitors will need to maintain existing film systems as well for a number of years.

And what about DLP is it that _requires_ multichannel sound? Why would an exhibitor who is presently running mono need to upgrade (other than for the benefit of his customers)? Is there any technical reason why the new equipment can't be configured to work with an existing mono sound system?

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David Zylstra
Master Film Handler

Posts: 432
From: Novi, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted 10-07-2007 07:28 PM      Profile for David Zylstra   Email David Zylstra   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As far as I know the "prints" are not being encoded with anything but multi-channel sound . . . . . . there were some initial digital files being created with LT/RT but they were separately labelled and after the first few months we stopped seeing them . . . . . . I'm sure it's possible to choose 1 or 2 of the 16 available channels to record mono or LT/RT (I can't remember offhand what DCI calles out the extra channes for) . . . only question is will the studios do it . . .

I heard that some of the TDC installs included a JSD-80 since using a DMA8 didn't always get the job done because the existing cinema processor sometimes did not have a 6 channel external input . . . . . I'm not sure who paid for it though (I'm only hearing it second hand from some of the guys who did the installs)

quote: Frank Angel
Can you please give more information about this CBG. There is a way to get DCinema equipment for $10,000? I am all ears.
CBG is now under the NATO umbrella - do a search for "Cinema Buying Group" and you'll get their website . . . . AccessIT and Technicolor Digital Cinema are doing "free" installs as well . . . . I know the AccessIT option includes similar up front per screen fees (mostly to fund Christie's installers) . . . . AccessIT's VPF deal for their first 4,000 units is almost up so if/when they negotiate their phase 2 the deal may be different . . . . . . . . I have only talked to guys doing the TDC installs so I don't know if their business deals are similar to AccessIT or CBG . . . . .

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Stephen Furley
Film God

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From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 10-08-2007 03:32 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Scott Norwood
And what about DLP is it that _requires_ multichannel sound? Why would an exhibitor who is presently running mono need to upgrade (other than for the benefit of his customers)? Is there any technical reason why the new equipment can't be configured to work with an existing mono sound system?

The Digital 'prints' only have the full six-channel mix on them, and there's nothing in the player to provide a Lt,Rt mixdown from it like there is with DVD players.

We ran digital for a while with only one surround channel because we didn't have our surround speakers wired in two groups, but this has been fixed some time ago; more expense for the cinema on top of the building work to provide a new port, HVAC work to provide an extract, ADSL line, connections to fire alarm system, Dolby DMA8, replacement of faulty Cat. 441 card that we didn't know about before as the fault only affected he digital input, which was previously unused. The amplifiers were also replaced with better ones, though this wasn't strictly required for digital, and has improved film sound as well.

We've had two films so far, I can't remember the titles now but I did mention them in a previous post, where only two channels, L and R, had any sound on them.

Several times there has been a film which was supposed to be supplied in digital, but for some reason wasn't available in that form, so we were supplied with a 35mm print instead. Other venues had played the same films in digital, so I don't know what the problem was. 'Pan's Labyrinth' was one of these. Another film was supplied in digital, but there was an aspect ratio problem with it, so it was run on film instead.

Staffing costs for us are unchanged; there is one projectionist, no more and no less, on duty when the cinema is open; it takes longer to load up a digital copy than it does to prepare a film print, and you cannot start showing a digital film until the entire film is loaded. If a film print arrives late I can have it on screen as soon as I can check and spool up the first reel; about ten minutes.

With digital we can show video with better picture quality than our old video projector could provide, when we bring back the same film for several runs we can keep the files loaded on the system rather than having to make up and break down a print each time, the sound quality is potentially better with digital, though this improvement isn't always realised; some films just have lousy sound however you play them. There's the possibility of showing live events, such as the Met. opera, though in our case this is unlikely.

As far as picture quality is concerned, I've seen digital look good, and I've seen it look terrible; the same with film. There's no dramatic difference between the formats.

Maintenance for film plus digital equipment is obviously going to be more expensive than for film only, and going digital only is simply not an option for anything other than a strictly mainstream venue at present, and isn't likely to be for a considerable time to come.

Other things being equal, having both film and digital installed is better than having only film, and I'm glad to have the digital available, but if the cost was coming out of my pocket then I wouldn't even consider it at present. There are almost no feature films that are not available on film; there are plenty, and if you are showing classic films a huge number, that are not available in digital. Most 'alternative content' is standard video, which can be shown on a normal video projector.

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David Zylstra
Master Film Handler

Posts: 432
From: Novi, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted 10-08-2007 07:41 AM      Profile for David Zylstra   Email David Zylstra   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We've had a few near SNAFUs where we almost got a 35mm print instead of digital - usually it ends up being confusion on our bookers part because they didn't know for sure if a film was available in digital and the studio rep they talked to may not have known for sure . . . . . . we've also seen a few where there were limited digital prints put out.

quote: David Zylstra
AccessIT's VPF deal for their first 4,000 units is almost up so if/when they negotiate their phase 2 the deal may be different
I should clarify this - the VPF deal itself is not almost up (i.e. the studios are locked into paying VPFs on the 4,000 installs for a long time) - I meant AccessIT is nearing the deadline to get the 4,000 screens signed up under this first VPF deal.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-08-2007 08:12 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Stephen Furley
it takes longer to load up a digital copy than it does to prepare a film print, and you cannot start showing a digital film until the entire film is loaded.
Well, You can let the server ingest the files while you do other work. Or you can leave the server on (prefered) and let it ingest when you leave the night before. Hopefully you don't sit and watch it ingest the whole time. Once the files are ingested actual make up of a show takes but a few moments.

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David Zylstra
Master Film Handler

Posts: 432
From: Novi, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted 10-08-2007 08:25 AM      Profile for David Zylstra   Email David Zylstra   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I know AccessIT is working on the speed . . . . . The latest AccessIT software has a significant improvement in transfer speed from the LMS (or TMS by DCI definition) - smaller films now get transferred in under an hour . . . . (I'm told the increased speed is due to full utilization of network bandwidth and servers with SATA II drives will see the most improvement)

Ultimately any title is supposed to be ready to play in 15 minutes per DCI . . . . we'll see if anyone reaches that goal . . . . .

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 10-08-2007 09:26 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Well, You can let the server ingest the files while you do other work. Or you can leave the server on (prefered) and let it ingest when you leave the night before. Hopefully you don't sit and watch it ingest the whole time. Once the files are ingested actual make up of a show takes but a few moments.
This is true, but not much help if a digital 'print' is late being delivered, or there is something wrong with it, and we have to get a new copy. This has only happened once, and the replacement arrived in plenty of time, the original copy was delivered several days before the date on which we opened the film. The fact still remains that from the moment a digital copy comes in through the projection room door it's going to take a long time before it can be on screen, almost certainly over an hour, unless it's a very short film, whereas I can easily have a film print on screen in ten minutes from its arrival, and if I really wanted to I could probably do it in five minutes, however long the film. I have had to do this several times in the not too distant past. If a film print arrives just minutes before a show, no problem. If a digital copy arrives at the same time then the show would have to be cancelled. I will admit that a digital copy is less likely to arrive late, for two reasons: Firstly because the keys can be configured to not be valid until shortly before the film is due to be shown, therefore the distributors may send the films out earlier, though this is not likely to apply in our case. Secondly, with film we receive many of our prints on crossover, so we cannot get them until several hours after they have come off screen at the previous cinema. Obviously this doesn't apply with digital copies.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 10-08-2007 10:01 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Stephen Furley
almost certainly over an hour
Granted you have a two machine booth there but with 96% of the rest of the states running platter the 1 hour time is about the same as making up a 2 hour film to run patter. The other nice feature digital affords is changing previews and headers pretty much instantainously where with filmits a bit more work, especially on platter.

Mark

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 10-08-2007 10:01 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Stephen Furley
almost certainly over an hour
Granted you have a two machine booth there but with 96% of the States running platter the 1 hour ingest time is about the same as making up a 2 hour film to run platter. The other nice feature digital affords is changing previews and headers pretty much instantaneously where with film its a bit more work, especially on platter.

Mark

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Ron Curran
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 504
From: Springwood NSW Australia
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted 10-08-2007 07:59 PM      Profile for Ron Curran   Author's Homepage   Email Ron Curran   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Good to see Mark posting in over/under 3D.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 10-08-2007 09:52 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know Ron, I don't see the 3-D here.... I don't know Ron, I don't see the 3-D here....

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Stephen Furley
Film God

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From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 10-09-2007 04:37 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You should have put that in a condensed font Mark; then you'd have the anamorphic side-by-site format. Or I could drag it over onto my widescreen monitor, stretch the window out a bit, and it could be side-by-side 70mm. [Smile]

To get back to the original subject; has anybody had any experience of the new digital 3-D processes, either watching or operating? Any comments on them, good or bad? I haven't seen any yet.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 10-09-2007 08:42 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've seen 2 Real-D features. Both had horrible color(probably improper color space) and the room the screen is in was too wide although the 3-D part of it seems to work. Real-D requires a silver screen.

I've seen one short demo of the Dolby 3-D system and it looked better in terms of color but at this point I can't say for the actual 3-D part since it was just a demo... although what I saw was adaquate. It does not require a silver screen but does require special (spinning I believe) filters installed in the projectors light path. I have a customer that wants to go this route sonce he's in direct competition with a Carmike Real-D System. Another thing to throw at you. Real-D is a 20K per year cost for each screen its put on... While the Dolby 3-D system is available for purchase for about 20K.

Mark

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Paul Konen
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Frisco, TX. (North of Dallas)
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 - posted 10-09-2007 01:08 PM      Profile for Paul Konen   Email Paul Konen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 


[ 10-18-2007, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Paul Konen ]

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-09-2007 02:11 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Indeed its less expensive and far higher quality to use two ZX projectors for 3-D than one projector as in the Real-D system. Just a little over two years worth of Real-D payments per screen pays for the second ZX projector... With this and the Dolby 3-D system available soon I think REAL-D will be headed for the Real Dumpster. Hey... I wonder if thats what the D stands for in Real-D....?

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