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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » I'm curious to know why many on Film-Tech seem to be so negative on digital cinema (Page 13)

 
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Author Topic: I'm curious to know why many on Film-Tech seem to be so negative on digital cinema
Lyle Romer
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1400
From: Davie, FL, USA
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 10-30-2008 07:45 AM      Profile for Lyle Romer   Email Lyle Romer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm now much less negative about 2k digital cinema than I was before. We installed a Christie CP2000-ZX yesterday mainly for 3D. Since we won't be playing 3D until Bolt, we've got High School Musical in digital right next door to a Cinemeccanica V8 playing the same thing in 35mm on the exact same size screen (clone auditorium). Screen is about 30 feet.

Right now I can only speak for flat but I can say that the digital picture looked much better than the 35mm picture next door. Yes I know the 35mm is limited by the 2K DI that I'm sure they did. But....I will say that the picture certainly looked better to my eyes than any flat picture I've seen on that same screen (and I've seen 100's of them since the early 90's).

I sat in the very front row (which is well under 1 screen height) and I was not able to see the pixel grid clearly although screen perforations are easy to see at that distance.

I hope to see live action scope sometime but I think we're just going to have Madagascar 2 and then it will be 3D (at lower resolution) starting with Bolt and going for a while.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-30-2008 08:30 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wait till you see some (still rare) 4K material played back on your 2K system... it looks fantastic!

Mark

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 10-30-2008 11:46 AM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Lyle, do you have your silver screen up yet? That will be the most annoying part of this set-up. You will see issues with the screen. It is not the fault of the digital projector. Will you have Real-D or Dolby 3-D? As stated before for the Dolby you will not have to have that silver screen just a higher 1.8 gain screen.

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Lyle Romer
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1400
From: Davie, FL, USA
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 10-30-2008 11:49 AM      Profile for Lyle Romer   Email Lyle Romer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We don't have the silver screen in yet (scheduled to arrive next week).

We're doing Real-D at this location. It will be interesting to see the image quality on the silver screen. We have the Z-screen mounted already. You can really see the amount of light it blocks just by looking at it.

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John Hawkinson
Film God

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From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 10-30-2008 03:23 PM      Profile for John Hawkinson   Email John Hawkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Remember that DC prefers flat to scope, so DC flat should look better than DC scope.

--jhawk

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 11-12-2008 04:30 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I can certainly tell you guys that single projector 3-D is more or less a waste of time! Just finishing up installing a dual CP-2000 3-D system at Zion Canyon N.P. with circular polarizers and it is easily as good of 3-D as the Imax film system is... certainly not as sharp though. But as 3-D digital goes dual projector is far and away the best there is... For single projection 3-D the Dolby 3-D system is easily superior to Real-D because it maintains excellent color at all viewing angles and the 3-D is viewable from any seat in any given room... even standing right in front of the screen.
I'll post some pics of this system later tonight.

Mark

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Frank Bruno
Film Handler

Posts: 50
From: houston, tx
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted 11-24-2008 08:55 AM      Profile for Frank Bruno   Email Frank Bruno   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know if anybody's seen this yet, but:

This Benjamin Button screening issue raises one of my digital anxieties; my favorite part:
quote:
"Film is not without the possibility of technical failure, but the digital cinema side has more opportunity for absolute failure," added Loren Nielsen, principal at Entertainment Technology Consultants.


Most lowly operators working for major exhibitors (counting myself in this number)are poorly trained for day-to-day booth operations, let alone quickly and properly addressing calamities. I'm not betting on AMC, Regal, or their ilk putting extensive training in place to deal woth the new digital equipment.

I haven't worked with any yet myself, but visited a sister location to check out their Christie digital projector setup. The guy working, who seemed film competent enough, explained that some click & drag was all that was expected of him. The projector actually had a "do not attempt to repair anything yourself" nastygram Scotch-taped to it in a few places.

I don't have a problem with Christie's techs, at least as far as their maintainence and repair of a DTDS advertising setup has gone. But with a full auditorium, there's no time to call a tech; there will need to be some kind of "heat of battle" training to make this work. I'd love it if that happened, I'm jsut skeptical that it does, at least until the wider digital rollout means more digital problems.

I would love it if there was, say exhibitor or manufacturer sponsored seminars anticipating the rollout, but I doubt that will be. Will maintainence contracts be bug enough that say, Christie doesn't want those of us in the trenches to have maintainence or repair training?

Side note: I still haven't seen an entire digital presentation. At the time of my visit, Hannah Montana was playing. I sat in a few mins and thought it looked OK in 2 and 3D, but not life-changingly good; only a little better than the "Spy Kids" type 3D (anaglyph, right? spelling?) I've never seen old 2-print 3D for that comparison.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 11-24-2008 10:00 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frank, I have yet to see this happen out of the blue here in my area where we have a huge congolomeration of digital screens. Screens have gone down because of lamp failure though... One location had a lightning bolt come right down the stack and take out alot more than the lamp! I'm sure there will be problems as the equipment ages and there more than likely HAVE been failures of the type that require house refunds... but it's not much different then a similar film system failure and I've seen it all happen there where a house has to be refunded... rectifier failure, platter system failure, film pileup causing stripped gear, lamp explosion, etc... you name it. From what I've seen so far Regal and Cinemark have done a great job training booth personel... and all their new builds are all digital. Now if they'd just pay enough to keep those people on board they'd actually have made some headway. They definately DON'T want booth personell servicing equipment! It takes alot of experience of having worked on alot of systems to get good at servicing digital... at least when there are real problems. A person that doesn't have alot of experience could possibly do more damage then good.

Mark

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Tristan Lane
Master Film Handler

Posts: 444
From: Nampa, Idaho
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 11-24-2008 11:29 AM      Profile for Tristan Lane   Email Tristan Lane   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Frank Bruno
I'm not betting on AMC, Regal, or their ilk putting extensive training in place to deal woth the new digital equipment.

Regal started prepping it's technical staff for digital years ago. Networking courses were encouraged for all technicians. They have been sending their techs to the vendors for training of the past few years. Their certification program incorporates digital cinema.

In my experience, that particular company has always ensured that it's technicians gained the knowledge needed to do the job correctly and competently, before it was even needed.

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

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From: Lexington, KY, USA
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 - posted 11-24-2008 05:42 PM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Cinemark have done a great job training booth personel... and all their new builds are all digital.
I wish I could say that all Cinemark New builds are Digital. We just opened a new location in Richmond, Ky. Has all used 35mm equipment in it.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 11-24-2008 06:33 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Donno Darryl, Perhaps thats a result of the Wall Street fiasco. All their new builds out here have been digital.

Mark

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Ron Funderburg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 814
From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA
Registered: Nov 2007


 - posted 12-16-2008 10:45 PM      Profile for Ron Funderburg   Author's Homepage   Email Ron Funderburg   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know if I have posted on this topic before or not! I have been thinking on this a lot of late, why are so many in the industry not that crazy about digital. There are a lot of reasons for this I'm sure. I think about me and I have very mixed emotion on the seemingly unstoppable advance of D-Cinema.

I think that my objections are an accumulation of all the different changes I have seen in Cinema over my life time. I have seen film in theaters in the old 1.37:1 screen size then there is 1.66:1, 1.75:1 and lastly 1.85:1 screen dimensions. Then along comes CinemaScope (pre-1957 at 2.55:1, then 2.35:1 now they say 2.40:1), VistaVision, Cinerama, SuperScope, ToddAO (also known as Dimension 150), Cinemiracle, Kinopanorama, UltraPanavision, and SuperPanavision. Not to mention the various 70 by incarnations of which the most used is now IMAX.

We had good ole lousy mono optical sound a basic 2 channel optical stereo sound then there was magnetic sound 4 channel stereo for 35 MM film, 6 channel mag stereo for 70MM and then optical Dolby stereo, Dolby Digital, DTS, and SDDS. The best of the offerings for picture (the various and sundry 70MM film formats) in the end were too expensive for both the exhibition end and the studio end and went bye bye.

Now we have labs that run the film through at twice the speed they should to make the prints and much of the product looks like total dog turds fresh out of the lab. You add in poorly trained projection people and you end up with inferior product.

Having seen all the changes in my 50 plus years of life I worry that either the digital will go south in a fast way or the production values will fall to inferior. It seems if looks good and sounds great we see how much we can screw it up in this industry, at the lab and in the theater. Digital sound is one of the few improvements that have actually hung around and been good for the presentation (now we have the audio cap or crap).

I threaded my first piece of film in November 1972 and have been pretty much in love with film but I have watched as manufactures and exhibitors look for ways to eliminate the projectionist. I know that some see this push to digital as just another push for just that one less pay check. Perhaps it is but it is a very expensive way to get rid of a job.

I think others just think it isn't a movie without film. I don't know if digital will sweep the planet and destroy any and all film presentation ... time will tell. The industry has change a great deal since the old days when men cranked the projector in silent film days. For sure there will be more changes in the future. It will be interesting to watch as for digital I think we are moving there for better or worse and maybe at breakneck speed.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

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From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-16-2008 11:00 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Ron Funderburg
I think others just think it isn't a movie without film.
Given the virus-like spread of home video, I don't think that bothers too many people.

I think what you meant is, it's not a cinema experience without film. To that I say, if they would eliminate all the digital-trumpeting crap that comes before the movie, the vast majority of people wouldn't know they weren't watching film. Hell, a lot of people who are watching film now think it's all a big video disk or something.

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Ron Funderburg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 814
From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA
Registered: Nov 2007


 - posted 12-16-2008 11:15 PM      Profile for Ron Funderburg   Author's Homepage   Email Ron Funderburg   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mike I only was referring to those in the business but yes that is accurate. I think it really is a blessing that most of the paying public are so uneducated to the way things are! After all if they knew the sound was crappy or the picture wasn't suppose to look that way they might actually complain more than they do!

I have seen the best and the worst of it all and it is a pretty mixed bag now and even in the golden oldie days as well. I remember seeing Ice Station Zebra and Airport at the Cooper Theater in Colorado Springs in glorious 70MM with 6 channel sound and Star Wars at the Denver Cooper! I can also remember seeing scratched up and badly spliced films at drive-ins and indoors around the country that came that way and got worse by the showing.

I can remember having to add commericals or advertising before the film for the first time in 1982 or 1983 and thinking "This suck big donkey things, green ones in fact!" My opinion on that hasn't changed!

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-16-2008 11:18 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Mike Blakesley
To that I say, if they would eliminate all the digital-trumpeting crap that comes before the movie, the vast majority of people wouldn't know they weren't watching film.
I absolutely agree! However the new T.I "Niagra Falls" tag(er what ever falls they are) shown in either 2-D or better yet in 3-D is literally spectacular, its a crowd attention getter, and worthy of a spot at the beginning of a show anad it allows your crowd a few seconds to settle in for the show. The Dolby Countdown especially in 3-D is also pretty nifty... Both of these tags show in about 10 seconds how good or bad your sound and picture really are. If played back at proper "sound mixer" levels they may even damage your B Chain!! There are also a couple of others that are interesting the first few times but wear out faster on the audiencce... Its really up to the theater to keep placing new ones in... or leave them out so the crowds don't get bored with them. The tags are not mandatory... except perhaps for the 3-D Disney Digital tag which is a piece of crap.

Mark

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