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Author Topic: An open letter to Tyler Perry Marc D Fishman Film Handler Posts: 26 From: Burbank CA. USA Registered: Jun 2012 posted 06-17-2012 07:07 PM                     I can't find the quote button yet, and this is my first post on this site. I have been in the audio post production business for 22 years (spending the last 16 as a re-recording mixer.) As a side note, I worked at the Continental Theater in Denver when it used to be a single screen.. it was during the time of 1/2 shifts being filled by union projectionists, and since I was an assistant manager at the time, I had to learn my way around the booth.. I would really like to open a dialog with the projectionist community about the state of audio playback in our cinemas today. I am lucky to live near one of AMC's premiere theaters (Burbank 16) and have had 4 really diverse, and all fairly terrible, experiences in there over the past month.. in one of their smaller rooms, one medium, and the IMAX and ETX auditoriums (#1 and #14.) The company I work for has been mixing Tyler Perry's films for the past 5 years, so I might have some insight.. however, I didn't mix any of them, but know the mixer(s) who did. We obviously spend our lives slaving over the audio tracks for films... and without fail, any film with a Dolby license (>99.9% in the last 15 years) have been mixed at a reference level that coincides with the CP value at 7.. 85db SPL for the LCR, 83 each surround, and 89-90 for the sub.) While I understand the fact that not all theaters have the best equipment, and I can sympathize theater to theater leakage, loud trailers, etc... I just don't understand the rationale that projectionist use in arbitrarily choosing playback levels.. If a film was shot to be projected at a certain luminance, it was mixed to be played back at industry standard... it's not arbitrary, and while I've mixed a number of films that would be on the lower side of the spectrum, there was always a reason to do so, and we (i.e. the director, editor, myself and the sound supervisor) were all aware of how it would be played back in a theater properly setup to have 7 = reference... I would really like to have an open, civilized discussion on these boards about audio playback in theaters...  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-17-2012 08:16 PM                        quote: Marc D Fishman I would really like to have an open, civilized discussion on these boards about audio playback in theaters... Marc - welcome to the forums! The Quote button is underneath the message-entry area, to the right of the "instant graemlins." Or an easier way to quote is type [qu ote] (without the space in the middle) in front of the text you want to quote, and put [/qu ote] at the end of the quoted text. I'm sure many of us would love to participate in the topic you describe. I'll leave it to you to start a new topic on it...just click the "New Topic" button.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 06-17-2012 10:06 PM                        This forum software is about 10 years old so it doesn't have modern features like a quote button or box near each post. Gotta manually enter it all in.  |  IP: Logged David Zylstra Master Film Handler Posts: 432 From: Novi, MI, USA Registered: Mar 2007 posted 06-18-2012 03:27 PM                     quote: Marc D Fishman I would really like to have an open, civilized discussion on these boards about audio playback in theaters... I echo Mike's comments about starting a new topic - it would definitely be productive as many on this board have experiences with the resulting "real world" guest experience.  |  IP: Logged Michael Uebler Film Handler Posts: 15 From: Evans Mills, NY Registered: Apr 2012 posted 06-21-2012 12:21 PM                     I can't speak for the Madea movies, but i ran good deed not too long ago, and the audio was right on but i did have to tell an audience full of angry customers that they couldn't continue the movie the first time i showed it. after my change over to the second reel the foot of my sweet srait simplex film gate fell off. Low and behold the guy that worked there befor me only left me a metric set of allen wrenches when the screw is in standard, so we were forced to shut down and i had to take it home and fix it.  |  IP: Logged Chris Slycord Film God Posts: 2986 From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea Registered: Mar 2007 posted 06-21-2012 04:49 PM                     Since you're running changeovers wouldn't it make more sense to put that second reel onto the first projector and send someone to get you a set of wrenches? I know I'm being a "Monday morning quarterback" and all but just a thought...  |  IP: Logged Robert E. Allen Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1078 From: Checotah, Oklahoma Registered: Jul 2002 posted 06-21-2012 06:12 PM                     You're right Chris. And that could be done in less time than a commercial break on a TV station running a movie.  |  IP: Logged Tony Bandiera Jr Film God Posts: 3067 From: Moreland Idaho Registered: Apr 2004 posted 06-21-2012 07:02 PM                     Not to mention you CAN run the entire show on one machine if you have to, you'll just have a short break at the end of each reel. Unless the booth catches fire or you have a complete power outage, there is NO excuse for not finishing a show in a changeover house.  |  IP: Logged Jock Blakley Expert Film Handler Posts: 218 From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Registered: Oct 2011 posted 06-21-2012 11:09 PM                     And it's even easier if you're running 6000' changeover.  |  IP: Logged Mike Frese Master Film Handler Posts: 465 From: Holts Summit, MO Registered: Jun 2007 posted 06-22-2012 01:13 AM                        quote: Marc D Fishman I just don't understand the rationale that projectionist use in arbitrarily choosing playback levels.. Simple answer: customer complains that it is too loud or they can't hear it well, it gets changed.  |  IP: Logged Chris Slycord Film God Posts: 2986 From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea Registered: Mar 2007 posted 06-22-2012 01:44 PM                     And it's a bit odd to call doing that "arbitrary." Arbitrary makes it seem like it's some whimsical decision by the projectionist to mess with things.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 06-22-2012 01:57 PM                     Yeah, that bugged me too. I've got a lot of training and experience in mixing for film and I certainly do not set levels "arbitrarily." My current cinema is THX certified, as was the last one (which was regularly tuned by Tom Holman himself) -- so that removes the systems from the equation. If the dialogue "tickles" my ear, then it's too loud -- Holman did extensive experimentation with professional and student mixers and they generally "agree" to within 1-2dB C SPL as to what is the "correct" level for dialogue -- so I'd say that validates my ability to determine an appropriate playback level. One could be a stickler and play everything at the magic "7" on the fader; but what good is it to satisfy (only) the film-maker -- who probably isn't in attendance -- at the expense of alienating the audience?  |  IP: Logged Marc D Fishman Film Handler Posts: 26 From: Burbank CA. USA Registered: Jun 2012 posted 06-25-2012 12:45 PM                     To say you can use your ears (and obviously everyone is different due to age, hearing damage, gender, etc.. too many factors to list) to determine playback level based on how loud you think the dialog should be completely negates the fact that the average dialog level can vary almost 10db over the course of a film... it might tickle your ear in one scene but be too low in another... That was my point.. we have a reference.. arbitrary might not have been the proper word to use.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 06-25-2012 03:42 PM                     Obviously some common sense is at work here too -- I'm not setting levels based on one scene -- and I think I can tell when a scene is supposed to be loud, or quiet, or normal. If we want to be really picky about it -- the mixers are setting levels arbitrarily too -- and naively if they think they have the final word on reproduction level. (And how good is THEIR hearing? Depends on how many Bruckheimer films.) Who gets final cut? The projectionist. That's who.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-25-2012 03:49 PM                        Out of curiousity, how often to sound mixers get to hear their work in "normal" commercial theatres? Unlike a mixing stage, theatres can be empty or full, depending on showtimes and the popularity of the film being shown. A theatre with two people in it sounds dramatically different than the same theatre with a thousand people in it. In most cases, the fader would need to go down slightly for the empty house and up slightly for the full one. As long as the channels are balanced with respect to each other and the system is otherwise well designed and in good order, I see no problem with this. The fader knob is there for a reason (and not just to turn down trailers). Also, in the real world, not every film exhibition venue has perfect acoustics and a proper sound system. We have "live" houses, "dead" houses, mono houses, Dolby houses, mono/surround houses, drive-ins, multi-use venues, etc. Standards are great, but the theatre is ultimately responsible for putting on a show that people will enjoy enough that they will come back to the same theatre to see another film. In any case, I think that it is great that we have some people from the production community who are participating here. We all (I hope!) want to improve the quality of what movie audiences see and hear, and it would be great to be able to work together to do that.  |  IP: Logged

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