posted 06-26-2012 01:00 PM                       

quote: Marc D Fishman

---

Regarding packed vs. empty.... it is a misconception that people absorb sound to a degree that effects SPL (not saying that is what you are stating, but just pointing out that this common myth is false...)

---

posted 06-26-2012 01:51 PM                    

quote: Manny Knowles

---

We have faders for a reason -- some movies are just mixed too damn loud -- (and a few are too quiet) -- that may be what the director intended but I question how much directors and producers really know about sound -- don't forget that our audiences are actually your customers -- if we played every movie at 7 -- even in the calibrated rooms -- it would be bad for business.

Trust me -- a lot of us here are VERY WELL familiar with the standards. We're not idiots.

Some movies are poorly mixed. It happens. Admit it and move on. Otherwise, this isn't really an "open" discussion.

---

Manny..... I never said you were idiots..

However, you are making assumptions about what directors and producers know, and are becoming judge and jury on what mixes suit your tastes....

You say you've been on a dub stage before for a mix ( you said you had "mixing experience") so I would think you would understand not only the process but the involvement of the directors and producers in it.

Are you trying to "protect" the directors from themselves?

Define "poorly" mixed.

Is it too loud? Too quiet... what make you the arbiter of taste in regards to the quality of the mix.

Sometimes I mix the dialog so it does "tickle the ear" for a reason...

We don't spend months of time, and hundred of thousands, or in some cases over a million +, on sound track creation not knowing that the film might be loud or too quiet.

Michael Bay makes movies for 13 year olds (for the most part..) Are you and I to judge what is good for them?

I can only admit that there are films that I don't subjectively agree with on how they sound...

I think some are way too loud... I think that some are not at all what I would subjectively agree with.. and I think some are too quiet.

So if you want to have me agree on that point I most certainly do.

But your putting a general label on a mix as being "bad" leaves too much room for subjective interpretation leading you to turn it down.

I've mixed close to 150 films, and on each one the director is intimately involved in the creation of the sound track, and has signed off on the final product on not only our dubbing stage, but at print checks and often screenings.

This doesn't happen in a vacuum.. even on the "bad" mixes.

The audience, our customers... they are paying good money to experience a story the way the director intended..

IMO.. it's not your place, or mine, to subjectively determine what that intention is and then try to enhance/correct/fix it.

I'm 43, and understand that a majority of the film going public (or at least the ones the studios think are spending the money at the theaters) isn't in my demographic... I would assume most of us who have been doing this for a while would agree.

Stepping outside this debate, however, is more pertinent to what I think is the real issue...

I commend you for taking the time and effort to at least verify what each film sounds like in a given room (even if I fundamentally disagree with changing it based on your tastes...)

However, my bigger issue is that there aren't more people like you who are working in the theaters who even understand what we are talking about here..

I know I have an unrealistic expectation for every film to play at reference..

But that's not my real concern (or goal)...

I went to six films over the span of the last month at a rather good theater (the AMC Burbank 16.)

Here were my experiences.

1. Avengers - DCP, 7.1. The subs were off (I spend two months mixing next door to that film... my room was shaking non stop so I knew how much content there was in the track, and what to expect.) Level of CP i would guess to be around 4.5 - 5 (it was easily 6-8 db low...)

2. Snow White - DCP, ETX 11.1 Passive Up Mix. AMC thinks they need to play above reference in their ETX room (after I spoke to the manager, she confirmed as much.) However, that wasn't my complaint... the subs were easily 10-15db too loud.. it was painful, and the "test" Dolby Atmos systems ceiling speakers were literally moving...

3. Prometheus - Digital IMAX 5.0 - Center speaker was 2-3 db too low. Dialog on both trailers and feature were fairly low, and I had a member of the sound team who was on the mix stage the entire time confirm it for me. Right surround was distorting.

4. Safety Not Guaranteed - DCP 5.1. Playing 6-8db too low, and it's a quiet film.

I contacted AMC corporate through their web site and received a follow up from the manager... she had the cine tech crew out as well as IMAX techs (she said they felt the room was in spec.) And now I have a contact for any other issues..

Since the follow up, I've been there twice.

Saw a film there two weeks ago, That's My Boy, in the same auditorium I say Avengers in.. it was perfect.

And yesterday I saw Brave in Dolby Atmos... obviously, it was also exemplary.

Obviously it's just a matter of making an effort, and holding exhibitors accountable to maintaining consistent standards of presentation...

That's my real concern.... if you, or any others on this forum who actually care, had been there, I suspect these issues wouldn't occur...

This shouldn't be a debate about playing loud films at a more reasonable level, or turning up films that can't be heard....

My whole point in starting this discussion is about getting the experience to be consistent....

That's all...

posted 06-26-2012 02:41 PM                       

quote: Marc D Fishman

---

Regarding packed vs. empty.... it is a misconception that people absorb sound to a degree that effects SPL (not saying that is what you are stating, but just pointing out that this common myth is false...)

---

Yah, well, then it's a myth that the myth is false, especially in a large house, of which I am well versed because I have worked as a house sound mixer in our 2400 seat theatre for decades and a recording engineer for just as long, I can tell you that even a layman can hear the difference in the sound of a packed house compared to an empty one. Even feedback thresholds change between empty and full.

Reverberation is certainly affected by clothing and the 2400 human body mass that's dumped into the space between the time we do a lengthy sound check and the time of the actual show. Even body heat and moisture will impact sound.

There's a famous story (not myth) about a recording session when Lenny Berstein and his NY Philharmonic were recording for Nonesuch; they had recorded for two days and then need to do match segments to cover a few things he was not happy with. On the third day the orchestra was back in the studio and the session began, but neither Bernstein nor the recording engineers could get the sound to match what they had recorded the previous two days, even though everything in the studio was exactly the same as the first recording sessions. Finally one of the engineers noticed that a lot of the musicians had hung up wet overcoats on racks at one end of the studio. The temperature had dropped the night before and it had also rained. The first two days were sunny and warm -- no wet coats. They removed the coat rack and outerware and voilá, problem solved.

So I have to disagree; sound levels in a theatre, at least in a large one like ours, most certainly does get affected by dumping a couple of thousand humans with clothing into the space.

My experience in our smaller space is certainly similar -- we have a 200 seater that is used for film and live recitals. Musicians were not happy with the treatment the acousticians gave the walls when they designed the space. Musicians complained (which is all they do when not actually playing) the space was to "dead" and they couldn't hear each other. The original design required both side walls to be covered with 24lb velour that was chosen specifically for its sound absorbing characteristics -- again by a reputable acoustic design firm -- not just by happenstance. The solution was to put that velour on tracks so that it could be pulled back to expose wood for the music recitals but then pulled to over the walls for film or other playback.

The Sam Levenson Recital Hall -- those curtains on the side wall had to be on travers tracks so they could be pulled all the way back to the rear of the room.

So if curtain material can significantly change sound characteristics, surely clothing and substantial mass does will.

As for the "director's intent" -- is the director's intent ever to make people leave the theatre in disgust because the sound is to loud or too low (especially to loud)? IMHO, there is no guarantee that everyone in the chain from the dubbing stages & mixing desk to the labs striking prints or authoring DCPs have all done everthing EXACTLY to spec or even if that director had ear wax buildup when he was screaming that the wanted the explosion louder. The last and final word in the chain is the audience that paid $15 to see his "work;" if they are all complaining that it's too loud, then damn it, it's too loud.

Let me ask you --is a theatre operator supposed to trust hunks of dumb hardware and an LED readout when his patrons are walking out in droves? I have seen THAT happen and sorry, I don't care how much money and time and effort goes into the process on the dubbing stage, surely neither you nor any sane director wants to loose his audience at the exhibition stage. What may "tickle your ears" may, if any single parameter in the long chain of processes that go from your hands on the fader to that fader in the booth is out of wack, than that sound level may no longer be a tickle but a full fledge audio assault.

And THAT, boys and girls, is why there has been a fader on every audio playback system since the invention of the electron tube.

posted 06-26-2012 03:52 PM                       

quote: Marc D Fishman

---

on a comedy laughter can swallow up dialog on the edge of being too low...

---

posted 06-26-2012 07:03 PM                    

quote:

---

From my own personal experiences of watching movies in different theaters and watching a lot of movies in the same auditorium within a certain multiplex I can clearly tell volume levels are varying both from venue to venue and sometimes feature to feature as well.

The technicians on the mixing stage might indeed be running pink noise and setting the reference at 85db on every Hollywood movie release, but something would have to explain the track volume differences I have heard from one feature to the next in the same auditorium on the same equipment at the same settings.

Volume differences from one feature to the next are pretty minor in comparison to the anger inspiring situation with movie trailer volume.

If movie directors and sound designers really want the theater's booth personnel to keep that fader set at 7 all the time they really need to stroll down to the studio's marketing department and deliver a brutal ass-chewing. Overly loud movie trailers and commercials generate more complaints about loudness than anything in the actual feature. Likewise, those overly loud trailers and commercials are the main thing that will cause a manager to visit the booth, turn down the master fader and leave it there.

The marketing people crank up the volume on TV commercials too. But I have remedies for that: the mute button, the DVR's fast forward button (on recorded events) and changing the damned channel. The marketing people need to wake the hell up and master ALL of their stuff at the appropriate level rather than 3db-10db above the main program.

---

quote: Chris Slycord

---

If directors all know about sound, why did I have a guy rage at me that he couldn't get his DD-only print to play in 5.1 in an SDDS house? And why when I explained we could only hook it up to work with SDDS or DTS did he say "I've never heard of those"? Clearly, because he was intimately involved in the sound and also educated on the subject...

Oh and this guy knew so much about cinema sound, that he thought we could redirect the LCR mix to also play in the rear and that when we weren't going to be able to do that on nearly no-notice, that the solution was to tell us to progressively turn up the fader to near 10.

No surprise, when the show was run for actual guests, they all complained when the volume was turned to his requested level...

---

quote: Manny Knowles

---

This is not an "open and progressive" conversation.

It's a very complex problem that is not going to be resolved by trying to defend reasonable action to one mixer.

Waste of time.

Case closed.

---