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Author
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Topic: An open letter to Tyler Perry
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 06-26-2012 10:16 PM
I, for one, am just frustrated in general with the average level of sound quality in movie theaters. It isn't very good, but it could be so much better. I've heard great sound mixes in some truly great movie theaters. Many others in this forum have witnessed "film done right" as well. It's fantastic. IMHO, a lot more commercial movie theaters should be hitting that mark but they're not doing so for a wide variety of reasons. Like Manny said, this problem is indeed very complex.
Most of the problems we have been discussing, such as creating movie trailers and commercials with acceptable volume levels that are more consistent with the main feature, could be solved with some phone calls, meetings, etc. IMHO, movie studios and commercial theaters should be doing more in the way of working together to improve the quality of movie sound in commercial theaters.
The toughest problem rests with the audiences.
I think audience apathy allows bad movie theaters to continue being bad. I've complained quite a bit here about theaters not really doing much to maintain their sound systems. A driver gets blown here and there and may remain broken for years on end -maybe even deliberately so in order for the theater chain to save money on maintenance costs. A lot of audience members don't seem to care. As long as they can hear the dialog coming out of the center channel they're willing to overlook the shortcomings elsewhere in the sound system.
Most audience members have never heard a great sound mix in a great movie theater. So they don't know what they're missing. And even if they witnessed a movie with stellar presentation quality most can't put their finger on the technical reasons that made it great. Movie studios and theater chains could be doing more to educate audiences about the differences, but that would risk making audiences aware that there are not so many good theaters and a lot of bad theaters. It's safer for the bottom line to keep audiences in the dark and keep on saving dollars by putting off sound system repairs.
And then there's the deplorable level of inconsiderate audience behavior ranging from compulsive mobile phone use to spilling soda and popcorn all over the floor. The piggish behavior gives some executives all the justification they need in cutting corners on theater design. Why install nice carpet all over the complex if the pigs are going to immediately ruin it? Some of these problems could be solved if theater chains would adopt a tougher, more courageous attitude in dealing with disruptive and destructive audience behavior. Sometimes that customer is not only flat out wrong, he needs to be bounced out of the theater and land on his ass in the parking lot.
quote: Marc D Fishman
Every film is going to have an average level that is going to of course vary... we don't stare at a meter and try and make it be one certain level.. the reasons are varied as to how loud or soft I mix a film, but they mostly have to start, in my case, with the overall subjective quality of the sound from the production recordings.
I understand this. What I'm talking about is pretty clear differences from one movie to the next overall from the dialog level and the most dynamic peak levels. One movie's loudest explosions and gunfire won't be nearly as loud as similar effects in another movie.
I like highly dynamic movie sound. It's fun to have a soundtrack startle the hell out of an audience. It's really funny to look through the port glass and see a few hundred people jump in unison. But the dynamics shouldn't be violating the pain threshold. With the example of Goldeneye I mentioned, that movie passed that threshold. We couldn't get through the first action sequence. The machine gun fire was painfully loud. Lots of high frequencies at high db levels. Shrill. And when the baddies blew that steel door off the hinges we were jumping out of the seats heading upstairs to the booth.
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Marc D Fishman
Film Handler
Posts: 26
From: Burbank CA. USA
Registered: Jun 2012
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posted 06-27-2012 12:29 AM
Manny et al...
My concern is about maintaining a consistent level of presentation.
As I said, I think some films are too loud, and some too quiet.. that's not my point (although I did myself no favors in pushing forward on the reasons why that may or may not be the case..)
If you read about my experiences at the AMC, it had nothing to do with the level of the films in question and everything to do with an exhibitor committing the time and / or resources to care about the quality of presentation.
I would think that someone who makes their living in the world of academia would be more encouraged to engage others without belittling snide posts, or actually have a healthy discussion without resorting to drawing a hard line in the sand and telling the other party to accept it or get lost...
quote: Bobby Henderson
Most audience members have never heard a great sound mix in a great movie theater. So they don't know what they're missing. And even if they witnessed a movie with stellar presentation quality most can't put their finger on the technical reasons that made it great. Movie studios and theater chains could be doing more to educate audiences about the differences, but that would risk making audiences aware that there are not so many good theaters and a lot of bad theaters. It's safer for the bottom line to keep audiences in the dark and keep on saving dollars by putting off sound system repairs.
You summed up a great deal of my concerns...
Over the last month I have reached out to many of my peers about this issue..
All of the points talked about here come up.. trailers are too loud, the systems aren't up to snuff, some films are too loud (yes, even some of us think so) etc..
In addition to educating the public, who I think are fairly savvy due to the proliferation of home theaters and the ever shrinking ability to have a good system at home for not a lot of money, the real education, IMO, needs to start with the chains and their management.
If a given projectionist feels a film is too loud, they will turn it down.. but when it doesn't get turned back up for the next feature, or can't even identify that the subs are off, or etc... those are inexcusable in my eyes.
Most members here are obviously passionate about films... if there were more people like this in a majority of theaters, things would be overall much more coherent and predictable.
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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 06-27-2012 11:27 AM
There must be a formula that represents the average number of posts in any thread here before THX gets dragged through the mud...
Aside from the reach for humor, my understanding that THX's involvement in the home theater side of things was to bring standards to the processes. Whether it was a DVD or a videotape, the idea that maintaining a consistent, testable condition is a good one, no?
Especially now that everything is moving toward Digital Cinema, I would think that getting back to that simple idea would be easier than ever. In fact, I would be shocked if this wasn't part of the production process.
Can you shed some light on that, Marc?
If varying sound levels of movies is such a concern, how about we shed some light on it? Perhaps a thread for each release so that people can comment on what they are experiencing in their theaters?
If someone is experiencing an issue, but no one else is, that could be an indicator to that first party that they have a problem that is unique to their situation, and further investigation is warranted. If there are widespread reports of "Witness Protection" (for example) being too soft, then it becomes common knowledge that this is perhaps an issue with the source material and not isolated to one theater.
It might be too much to hope that those in the production side and those in the exhibition side could collaborate and share information freely, but without even that much information, there is no data, just anecdotal evidence that doesn't do any substantial good.
May I humbly suggest the following sample thread?
quote:
Sound Check - Goldeneye
"Played Goldeneye (DCP) on Screen 3 at AMC Burbank, and found the intro scene so loud, we had to turn the fader down to 5 to reach listenable levels.
Theater last calibrated two months ago, spot checked levels, everything looks good at first glance."
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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"
Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 06-27-2012 11:47 AM
Say -- that's not a bad idea, Scott!
Would this be a welcome addition to the "Feature Info" threads?
Or is there any concern about "cluttering" those with lots of posts pertaining to fader levels?
As for THX, it seems only natural when issues of sound standardization issues crop up. This problem was supposed to be solved already -- almost 30 years ago, dammit!
So, for the record...
Lucasfilm/THX probably should have come up with a different name for certifying consumer stuff, to reserve "THX" as a designator that a venue has been professionally verified to meet the standard -- not just the products/media used therein.
THX gear in a house or car (or even a cinema) doesn't guarantee that it has been (or even could be) properly implemented to meet the same standard that was once reserved for true THX cinema certification.
In the case of home theatre and car stereos, I suspect there isn't a whole lot of THX measurement or calibration carried out on the installation. Certainly the standards would need to be relaxed in order to "pass" most consumer installations.
When it became possible for people to say "I have that in my home" it devalued what THX once stood for. It's no longer special -- no longer a symbol of excellence -- if anyone or everyone can claim they have it. How many "bests" can there be?
And, of course, the very suggestion that a VHS recording meets "the" THX standard...well...that just strains credibility.
See also: Is THX Still Relevant
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Marc D Fishman
Film Handler
Posts: 26
From: Burbank CA. USA
Registered: Jun 2012
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posted 06-27-2012 12:39 PM
quote: Manny Knowles
The people in the world of academia seem to think I know what I'm doing.
So if you were me and the people are screaming bloody murder because a movie is too loud -- or begging me to turn it up louder -- what would you do? Tell them to accept it or get lost?
Manny... I never implied you didn't know what you're doing... I simple stated that based on the tone of your comments back to me you don't seem to be interested in trying to engage me in a helpful manner..
Please don't put words into my mouth.
A question for those following my concerns..
How many times do you find your self playing the films at a level other than 7, and of that percentage, how many times do you feel it's too loud, and how many times do you feel it's too quiet.
quote: Scott Jentsch
Aside from the reach for humor, my understanding that THX's involvement in the home theater side of things was to bring standards to the processes. Whether it was a DVD or a videotape, the idea that maintaining a consistent, testable condition is a good one, no?
Especially now that everything is moving toward Digital Cinema, I would think that getting back to that simple idea would be easier than ever. In fact, I would be shocked if this wasn't part of the production process.
Can you shed some light on that, Marc?
If varying sound levels of movies is such a concern, how about we shed some light on it? Perhaps a thread for each release so that people can comment on what they are experiencing in their theaters?
If someone is experiencing an issue, but no one else is, that could be an indicator to that first party that they have a problem that is unique to their situation, and further investigation is warranted. If there are widespread reports of "Witness Protection" (for example) being too soft, then it becomes common knowledge that this is perhaps an issue with the source material and not isolated to one theater.
It might be too much to hope that those in the production side and those in the exhibition side could collaborate and share information freely, but without even that much information, there is no data, just anecdotal evidence that doesn't do any substantial good.
As Manny alluded to, THX media certification wasn't intended to be an arbiter of subjective content.
They were concerned with objective QC... in terms of audio, clipped levels, drop outs, distortion, etc..
I am lucky to attend a lot of screenings outside of public venues, and I can be fairly certain that what I'm hearing at many of those are as intended...
I don't think there is an overall concern from most of my peers that there is a huge issue with varying levels... an awareness, but not so much a concern.
All of the stages in town where films are mixed, and certified by Dolby to print master in, are close enough so that when a film like "Witness Protection" (and for full disclosure it was mixed at the company I work for on a stage I'm fairly familiar with) comes out at whatever overall level it does, it's gone though so many QC stages (from mix to print master to print and DCP check, etc.) it couldn't be a surprise to anyone how loud (or in this case low) it was....
And as the OP said, it's been an issue in many houses, requiring a substantial amount of gain.
Your post got me thinking about the possibility of having the information of the overall loudness content of a film... much like Dialog Normalization values for broadcast and media Dolby Digital..
Since we have a dubbing and exhibition standard, I think most film makers would find that kind of information not needed... we aren't going to get Michael Bay, Chris Nolan or other directors who like there films loud, to change their ways... and as I've made clear, while it's not always my cup of tea (loud films) I have to respect their tastes and desires...
IMO, I would love for audiences to experience it as intended... and I fully understand that's not always going to happen in all instances.
And again, for clarity (and I myself most certainly clouded up my initial point) I'm concerned with the fact that most theaters don't have employees that know what to check for, change it for one film but don't bother changing it back for another, have speakers off or broken, have a policy like Landmark for all films to play at 5, etc....
As much as Manny and I hit it off on the wrong foot, I am wholly apprciative of his efforts to present to his audience a good experience.
Not every film I've mixed has ended up as loud as I've wanted them (and I've only mixed a couple of really loud films...) but its always been a conversation with the directors, film editors and producers.
Many things to think about..
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