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Author Topic: More d-cinema morons
John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-15-2004 08:43 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's usually not the numbers of prints, but the "shortcuts" labs are forced to use to meet tight release deadlines.

In particular, it is well known that printing a short pitch original to a short pitch raw stock on a continuous contact printer is less than optimal because of possible slippage in the printer, resulting in loss of sharpness and possible unsteadiness. Continuous contact printing is designed to print a short pitch original to a long pitch raw stock, and excellent quality can be obtained, even at the very high printer speeds used for release printing.

Ideally, the short pitch original negative should be printed to make a long pitch master positive. The long pitch master positive is then printed on a slower step printer using registration pins to make the short pitch duplicate negatives needed for the final release printing to long pitch (KS-1870 perforations) print film. Or the short pitch duplicate negatives can be made directly from a Digital Intermediate. But step printing and laser recording are relatively slow, compared to continuous contact printing, requiring more time (days rather than hours) to make multiple duplicate negatives for a worldwide release --- time that a tight production schedule may not allow.

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h1/printing.shtml

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h1/sizesP.shtml#p

quote:
Optimum Pitch for Printing.
Continuous printers used for motion picture film are designed so that the original film and the print raw stock are in contact (emulsion-to-emulsion) with each other as they pass around the printing sprocket, with the raw stock on the outside (Figure 43). To prevent slippage between the two films during printing (which would produce an unsharp or unsteady image on the screen), the original film must be slightly shorter in pitch than the print stock. In most continuous printers, the diameter of the printing sprocket is such that the pitch of the original must be 0.2 to 0.4 percent (theoretically, 0.3 percent) shorter than that of the print stock. With nitrate film and early safety film, this condition was achieved by natural shrinkage of the original during processing and early aging. However, the substantially lower shrinkage of present safety films makes such a natural adjustment impossible; therefore, film used as printing originals is now manufactured with the pitch slightly shorter than the pitch of the print film For 35 mm film, the pitch dimensions are 0.1870 inch (4.750 mm) on print film and 0. 1866 inch (4.740 mm) on original film; for 16 mm film, they are 0.3000 inch (7.620 mm) on print film, 0.2994 inch (7.605 mm) on most camera film.



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Mattias Ohlson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 180
From: Falun, Sweden
Registered: Mar 2003


 - posted 04-15-2004 11:12 AM      Profile for Mattias Ohlson   Email Mattias Ohlson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John Pytlak
I have a question about DI. Why is the flow not like this:
Orignal camera negative->film scanning->DI->film used for projection.
I am essentially asking if it could be done like this ignoring cost and time factors.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-15-2004 11:19 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You need a printing negative to make the relase prints and transfering from DI to film is a slow process
In theory a print could be generated from the DI directly but at a very slow speed

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 04-15-2004 11:44 AM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The average rendering speed to create a printing negative or other print materials average 0.8 to 3.2 seconds PER frame from the digital master to the available recorders from Celco / Lasergraphics /Arriflex....so if you want to wait a few months to get out that 1000+ print order [Wink]

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-15-2004 01:09 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dupe negatives used for release printing can, and have, been made directly from a Digital Intermediate. Recall that Ted Costas reported that the duplicate negatives for "Star Wars Episode 2: Attack of the Clones" were all "original" recordings of the digital data, rather than recording out onto a master positive and then printing multiple duplicate negatives.

As cost and efficiency of digital output technology improves, making duplicate negatives directly from the Digital Intermediate will be used more often:

http://www.cinesite.com/?122

quote:
As a wholly owned subsidiary of Eastman Kodak, Cinesite is dedicated to pioneering digital imaging technology. Our digital intermediate services offer the best of both worlds: the beauty, quality and resolution of conventional film in the flexilibility of a cutting edge digital environment.

http://www.cinesite.com/?1231&0&2416

quote:
Kodak Lightning I and II Laser Recorders
Polygon has 16 facets and spins at 6120 revolutions per minute
10 bit (per color per pixel) log space
Digital files recorded out to Eastman EXR Color 5242 Intermediate Stock



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Mattias Ohlson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 180
From: Falun, Sweden
Registered: Mar 2003


 - posted 04-16-2004 01:14 AM      Profile for Mattias Ohlson   Email Mattias Ohlson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John Pytlak
Has any film premiered with a print created directly from a DI for a very high quality, here time is not important since only one copy is necassary.
My guess is that the DI is turned into a positive from the scanned film negative. How else should you be able to work with it.

Apart from the printing method what else can be done to cut corners with the duplication negative and the release print. I guess no corners are cut with the master positive apart from what you described above.

many thanks in advance

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-16-2004 08:52 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I doubt that any laser recorders are set up to properly transport and register print film, which is perforated KS-1870, rather than the BH-1866 perforations used for printing negatives.

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Mattias Ohlson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 180
From: Falun, Sweden
Registered: Mar 2003


 - posted 04-16-2004 12:22 PM      Profile for Mattias Ohlson   Email Mattias Ohlson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK
In the future is it possible that a product is developed that can reasonably quickly produce prints ready for projection directly from a DI. I ask this since this should give the highest resolution. You are only really limited by the final printing stage, in theory of course.
oversample OCM 8kx6k and store and work the DI at 4k
develop a printing system capable of 4k
use film that can resolve that 4k, fine grain?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-16-2004 12:33 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
ANYTHING is possible, including a DI printed directly to print film. [Smile]

Kodak VISION Color Print films are more than capable of 4K resolution. Here are the resolution and MTF data for 2383:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/print/2383.jhtml?id=0.1.4.8.4.7&lc=en#imgstr

quote:



Technical Data
KODAK VISION Color Print Film / 2383/3383
Image Structure
Like EASTMAN EXR Color Print Film 2386, 3386, KODAK VISION Color Print Film / 2383/3383 has excellent sharpness, capable of capturing almost all of the detail in the printing negative and projecting it onto the largest of theatre screens. Fine grained emulsions, ultra-thin layers, intra-grain absorbing dyes, and superior halation protection all contribute to this excellent performance.

Modulation Transfer Function (MTF) is an objective measure of film sharpness. The film is exposed with a spatially varying sinusoidal test pattern having 35 percent modulation. After processing the MTF target images are measured with a microdensitometer. The response of the film (percent) for each color record is plotted as a function of the spatial frequency (cycles per millimetre) of the original exposure.

Resolving Power subjectively measures the ability of the film to resolve a test target consisting of closely spaced parallel lines. High contrast (Test Object Contrast 1000:1) and low contrast (Test Object Contrast 1.6:1) resolution bar targets are exposed onto the film, and the highest spatial frequency (lines pairs per millimetre) that can be resolved is measured from the processed film by viewing the images with a microscope.

High Contrast Test Object Resolving Power:
>550 line pairs per millimetre (TOC 1000:1)

Low Contrast Test Object Resolving Power:
>200 line pairs per millimetre (TOC 1.6:1)


http://www.kodak.com/global/images/en/motion/products/lab/f010_0292ac.gif

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The projectable image area of a 35mm "scope" frame is 20.96 x 15.29 millimeters (per standard SMPTE 195). [Smile]

The projectable area of a 70mm 5-perf print image is 48.56 x 22.10 millimeters (per standard SMPTE 152) [beer]

The projectable area of a 70mm 15-perf image is 69.6 x 48.5 millimeters. [thumbsup]

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Mattias Ohlson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 180
From: Falun, Sweden
Registered: Mar 2003


 - posted 04-16-2004 02:18 PM      Profile for Mattias Ohlson   Email Mattias Ohlson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mr Pytlak
Do you see any chance for the scenario I dreamed up to happen. Are there technical difficulties that can not be solved at the printing stage?
Is this a chance for film to show what it is capable of. Most people do not get to see film at its best. Then there is the projector. I do not know if there is any idea to do the above with old projectors with old lenses. How much resolution will be left anyway? I know old is not worse, but I have read here that there have been developments with lenses.

In the digital scenario the DI is digitally stretches and no anamorphich lens is used.
DI->digital cinema format 4k->4k projector.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-16-2004 03:26 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Laser recorders are still measured in SECONDS per FRAME recorded. So a feature film still takes over two days to record out to film. As through-put becomes faster and more economical, you may eventually see "EK" prints directly onto print stock from DI.

With proper maintenance and set-up, most projectors and modern lenses are capable of resolving the finest resolution targets on the SMPTE 35-PA (RP40) test film, or over 80 cycles (160 lines) per millimeter.

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Mattias Ohlson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 180
From: Falun, Sweden
Registered: Mar 2003


 - posted 04-16-2004 04:06 PM      Profile for Mattias Ohlson   Email Mattias Ohlson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It is good to hear about what good equipment in the right hands are capable of. The big question is what old equipment with average skilled personel is capable of. If that figure is a lot less it might not be worth striving for DI straight to print.

It is very kind of you to answer my questions. Thanks!

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-16-2004 04:30 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I easily get that performance from 30 year old Century projectors with Isco lenses. It's not "rocket science". [Cool]

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Mattias Ohlson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 180
From: Falun, Sweden
Registered: Mar 2003


 - posted 04-16-2004 04:59 PM      Profile for Mattias Ohlson   Email Mattias Ohlson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It is easy for you , you are Film GOD [Smile]

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-17-2004 10:26 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Lots of "lesser gods" here on Film-Tech who are also capable of getting >80 cycles per millimeter on the screen. [Smile]

The two key factors are the quality of the lenses used and how well you control any excess radiant energy (lamp alignment and heat filters). [thumbsup]

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