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This topic comprises 10 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
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Topic: Trinnov Audio - OVATION digital cinema processor
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 12-26-2016 10:16 AM
So Mark...have you put in the Ovation? If not, how do you make your claims? Are you just going to go by flashy gobbledygook that is claimed by the unit (hush up people that have put it in and have done extensive testing, this is for Mark)?
I've heard the dirac and it didn't do much for me though I wouldn't claim to have done enough testing with it to say it is good, bad or indifferent. I don't approach new things with the belief that they either do or don't do something. I let the results speak for themselves. Again, in the film days, I used the Panastereo CSP1200 in lieu of the CP65 (and often in lieu of the CP650) due to the performance I got out of it, including MUCH better control in automated systems. The fact that it was 10dB quieter helped out a lot in screening rooms where hiss was more apparent and objectionable. I used it with both the CM353 SR NR as well as genuine Dolby CAT280Ts. The difference in performance wasn't enough to give either a clear edge, considering the tracks were mastered with Dolby's NR.
But back on topic. It is great that someone is attempting to build a better unit that can improve the cinema experience and I do look forward to seeing what it can do but I will not pass judgement on it (or anything else) just by mere claims. Most claims, in my life, have not been borne out. It is almost like people are just trying to sell me something! I can tell you, I'm not too impressed with its listed features on alternative content. It doesn't list either DTS or Dolby as formats it decodes (the AP20 does up to DTS Master Audio and Dolby AC3, the QSC DPM100H also handles DTS Master Audio and AC3). These are serious considerations for me because they HAVE to be dealt with in most of my theatres. How does it handle going from 5.1 to 7.1 and back? I don't like how the JSD series from USL requires consuming a button for it because I need 2.0, 5.1 and 7.1 in just about all of my theatres. The AP20 can check all of those boxes. the CP750 is good with the formats but is allergic to DTS so it poses problems. QSC's DCP line doesn't handle DTS or Dolby decoding so again, if they are to be used, then they have to be dealt with in some manner. Even if a full bore Drag and Drop DSP is used, like Q-Sys...that problem has to be addressed. I do have a solution in my "hip pocket" in the name of Crestron's HD-XSP but that has to be factored into the overall cost and it needs a controller of some sort since it defaults to no inputs selected on each power cycle. The Oppo Blu-ray player has been a means for us to deal with alternative content since it will decode from outside sources though not the high-bandwidth form of the audio.
All of this stuff factors into my decision on what processor to use in a sound system because all of this factors into the bottom line. What a customer will value will vary and saying something sounds better is all relative and hard to quantify in a justification of added expense.
Believe it or not, the fact that QSC refuses to offer a 0-10 fader option is a big strike against them every time a sound processor is chosen. I don't like the added hassle of teaching people how to adjust a fader in negative dB. Is isn't human-friendly. There is zero sense for what is a little bit quieter if the faders is set to -3.0dB. I've actually had to put a conversion chart into the cues so they have a sense...it is an extra pain that I would prefer to do without.
Furthermore, when it comes to sound quality. MANY, MANY factors go into it. The speakers and the room acoustics and such are going to be higher on my list than an esoteric sound processor.
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Mike Babb
Master Film Handler
Posts: 250
From: Norwich UK
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 12-26-2016 02:10 PM
Steve and Marco, their home unit does Atmos/DTS-X and Auro. The software exists because of that product to do AC3 but nothing official has been announced, for the cinema box.
Fader can either be in db or "legacy" where reference is 7.0. I have only ever used the legacy setting.
No analog pro logic from the stereo L/R, it will send L/R to L/R or copy to surrounds as well. And it also has 8 channel db25 in as well as 2 XLR in.
Keep in mind, although I am sure we can name venues that use consumer decoding, this was primarily developed as a commercial cinema box. It's important to think about the fact that adding everything that everyone could possibly need comes as a cost. But because of the platform, software can be updated to add features.
As Steve mentioned the HDXSP is a nice box and adds tons of consumer options for an affordable price. You can also buy a cheap decoder box that breaks out formats, I think I have one that does Dolby and DTS to 5.1 that I got for $25. Never used it, but it exists.
When I have hooked Oppos to it, and I do often, I use a DB25 from the 8 channel analog input to 8x RCA and works great.
And finally, suggestions from dealers, customer, myself, forums like this, are all taken in and conversations about future development follow.
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Marco Giustini
Film God
Posts: 2713
From: Reading, UK
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 12-26-2016 02:28 PM
Steve,
Ok, probably it was mentioned by Trinnov as a future development.
quote: Mike Babb
this was primarily developed as a commercial cinema box. It's important to think about the fact that adding everything that everyone could possibly need comes as a cost. But because of the platform, software can be updated to add features.
Mike,
Sure, but in the real world HDMI has now entered the cinema world and it is being used extensively. Yes, you can hook up am HDMI to SPDIF de-embedder (when the unit will decode AC3) and blah but the bottom line is that a 4-ports HDMI 2.0 switch with AC3, DTS and DTS-MA decoding directly embedded into the sound processor, brings an incredible value to those customer who need that.
And while I do love sound and I am always welcoming new products that aim to improve it, I cannot think - unfortunately - of a single customer who would be happy to give up the HDMI switch and DTS decoding for a more advanced EQ - which, as Steve pointed out, is only a player in the bigger team: the perfect EQ cannot overcome poor speakers, poor amplification, poor acoustics.
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 12-26-2016 04:21 PM
So you HAVE put one in? If not, how do you know what it can/cannot do?
As for what people want...it doesn't even do a pro-logic decode for stereo sources...something 90% of my customers would want and would cost Trinnov all of what to have it in their software that they have in their over-the-top pricing of the consumer unit.
quote: Mike Babb
Keep in mind, although I am sure we can name venues that use consumer decoding, this was primarily developed as a commercial cinema box. It's important to think about the fact that adding everything that everyone could possibly need comes as a cost. But because of the platform, software can be updated to add features.
Stop right there. That right there is a very lame answer. It is as lame as any answer the Dolby people have given as to why the CP850 doesn't have an analog multi-channel input of, at least, 8-channels.
The Ovation doesn't boast about being an entry level processor. We have that in a JSD60 or even a CP750 and possibly the DCP100 or DPM100. Those are the processors that fill 95% of what cinemas want/need. The Ovation, AP20, CP850, DCP-200/300 are supposed to be offering something above and beyond. Even the QSC Q-SYS and DPM has their optimized settings for QSC speakers that should take 90% of the EQ needs out of proper rooms.
The Ovation is not being billed as an enco-box but a better box. How do you put in so many hardware spigots (multiple S/PDIF) and analog stereo...things that actually cost money and only provide Left/Right? That is just incompetence. Other than playing intermission music (something that rarely happens nowadays due to ads) NOTHING in a cinema should play out as just Left/Right. The speaker spread is just way too far apart.
While you may be able to find HDMI to coax dembedders out there for $25, that is a far cry from actual multi-channel decoding of the best audio the medium has to offer. After all, we are going to be running it through the wonder-box that should make everything better. Starting with a better source should be step 1. I sell a lot of Oppos. So I think that issue is mostly solved, for me but that isn't due to any greatness of Trinnov, it is in spite of it.
So really, all this box is offering me/my customers is the potential better tune-up? Forget about it for anything other than DCP other than a flow-through box. A $4K-$5K box? I'm not saying that there isn't value there. A better sounding theatre is always appreciated (though sometimes is a tough sell when better = more money without proof of more tickets). There are places where I AM interested in using something like that. I'd be a LOT more interested in it if it checked off more boxes in the feature department. Also, I'd like it if the manual was available for download. If it is, they have sufficiently hidden it.
Even more than before. I'd like to see a good review of it showing its ups and downs.
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Mike Babb
Master Film Handler
Posts: 250
From: Norwich UK
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 12-27-2016 06:38 AM
Steve, lame answer or not, the box was developed for digital cinema. And I do appreciate what you are saying. Perhaps they could have added consumer analog decoding, or digital decoding, and from a technical standpoint that is still possible because of the platform. Personally I'd like to see it. But it would add cost probably, because of the licensing, something they are already doing in their other product line. I am feeding comments back to Paris from customers, dealers and this site. The CEO/owner and the other 3 owners of the company are hands on, I did several calibrations with the CEO last summer.
And as you have noted, Oppo or HDXSP get you there.
In time, there will be more people in this forum who have heard it and worked with it besides Pete, Larry and myself. That way more can be said about the process and results.
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