|
|
 
|
|
Author
|
Topic: Union Projectionists
|
|
|
|
|
Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
|
posted 04-09-2005 11:07 AM
quote: Jim Ziegler
Xenon bulbs.. Automation.. Platters.. Non-Nitrate film stocks.. Those were some pretty big innovations that made the operation of a booth simplier and much less dangerous.
I know Brad just made a satement on those but here is my take...
Xenon lamps: These are safer than Carbon rods? Xenon lamps are a technology that are more dangerous and are inferior in terms of light quality. Carbon arc still provides the best light. What Xenon lamps really brought to the table was a reasonably reliable method of striking a lamp that would last much longer...they facilitated such items as the platter. So, I'll give you simpler (though these systems have a higher failure rate) but not less dangerous.
Automation...you are reaching back many decades on that one. As automation goes in this world, the projection booth automation is that that sophisticated. They were automating changeovers before they were automating plattered theatres...in fact with automation, one operator can even run changeovers in a mulitplex. As to your statement...I don't see automation, in the theatre sense offering any improvement in safety nor simplisticy. In fact, with automation one has cue foil that must be placed by the operator or removed. The sensing tape of one theatre may run afoul for another theatre if cues are placed differently.
Platters...as I have pointed out in other threads....offer nothing for either simplisticy nor safety. They also, given automation, offer nothing for a projectionist to run a multiplex with automated changeovers. In fact, they add to the build up and tear down time each week. Servicing trailers (and now ads) also favor the changeover operation. With the current "state-of-the-art" one operator can now run a changeover theatre of even larger plexes than with platter and less chance of film damage (for reference, check out the Kinoton FP30E-R).
Non-nitrate film stocks...okey dokey...you got that one on safety. There is nothing simpler about safety film though. It is also a technology reduction. I've yet to find the person that has seen a nitrate print projected that didn't think it looked better than any of the safty film counterparts. There are theories that our resident Kodak expert has offered but so far Nitrate still comes out on top, quality wise. However, on balance, most will agree that the trade-off was a good one so safety film offers enough improved saftey to warrant it being the primary category of film base.
So in the big inovation department...you are still reaching back 1/2 a century or so and while one is big in the safety department, I'll only give you one in the simpler department (xenon) though it certainly is not better.
quote: Jim Ziegler
Actually, labor per screen has been reduced. One operator could not run 10 2k changover screens, but can run 10 platter screens.
You are correct...but your arguement is wrong. The difference there is automation and reel size, not method of film transport. One operator can easily run a 10-plex changeover with automation and 6K reels.
quote: Jim Ziegler
The point I was trying to make is that projection has moved away from being a dangerous job to one that is not dangerous and that, while technical, is one that can be taught to a quality minded college student, or even a mature high school student, in a shorter period of time than in the past.
Long ago, it moved away from being a dangerous job. You are completely wrong about the time it takes though...the time is the same or longer if quality is your goal. Quality is quality, knowledge is knowledge...again...the difference in flipping a motor switch versus pushing the start button is not so great as to provide any savings in time. In fact it is worse...often this level of operator can not run their theatre if the automation stops working correctly...they can't run the motor by themselves or switch the sound system (I've taken those calls...)...heck if even the hand douser is left closed...that seems to baffle the modern quickly "trained" operator.
If the quality level of the theatre is low...I agree that less is expected of the job done.
quote: Jim Ziegler
My theatre can't afford a 50k a year operator.
I don't think a specific dollar amount should be stated as minimums...it does depend (as you pointed out in another response) that it depends on the area one reside. $50K goes much further in the middle of nowhere than in a big metropolitian area.
However...even a $20/hour operator would not be making $50K...more like $41.6K. At the Uptown, it was $12/hour or just about $25K/year in a major metropolitian city. A person showing films for a living should be able to support themselves in the region they work.
If a theatre can't afford a projection staff that meet that sort of minimal condition (and others...provide a clean and well run theatre in other respects too), then yes it should close...it is a failing business that is on the edge. Either the community is not supporting the business because they have other forms of entertainment they value more or perhaps the area is overscreened and is hurting all players.
The business is showing movies...thats why they are called movie theatres and not cafes. The minimum level of quality such a business should provide with a medium like film is someone to make sure the product is presented properly.
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99
|
posted 04-09-2005 05:11 PM
quote: Steve Guttag
So in the big inovation department...you are still reaching back 1/2 a century or so and while one is big in the safety department, I'll only give you one in the simpler department (xenon) though it certainly is not better.
Very well Steve, in light of your statement, I have to revise my views. If running a changeover booth is just as easy as running a platter booth, then I can't see a reason why a union would EVER have been justified.
quote: Steve Guttag
Long ago, it moved away from being a dangerous job. You are completely wrong about the time it takes though...the time is the same or longer if quality is your goal. Quality is quality, knowledge is knowledge...again...the difference in flipping a motor switch versus pushing the start button is not so great as to provide any savings in time. In fact it is worse...often this level of operator can not run their theatre if the automation stops working correctly...they can't run the motor by themselves or switch the sound system (I've taken those calls...)...heck if even the hand douser is left closed...that seems to baffle the modern quickly "trained" operator.
Steve, I have, personally, trained high school and college kids to be damn fine operators. Running a booth is not something that requires a 2 year apprenticeship. Training a quality operator takes a matter of weeks for the basics, with continuing training after the basics are mastered. Maybe I am just better at training than you are...
quote: Steve Guttag
However...even a $20/hour operator would not be making $50K...more like $41.6K. At the Uptown, it was $12/hour or just about $25K/year in a major metropolitian city. A person showing films for a living should be able to support themselves in the region they work.
Steve, an operators job is not worth that in the modern labor market. Why would I pay $12 an hour (more than the managers get paid) when I can get someone to do the same job for much less. Ultimately, I am going to have to train them either way (after all, the IA does not maintain a huge presance in my little town of 20,000 people). Some jobs Steve are not worth $12 an hour, or $25 an hour, etc. If someone is desiring to make that kind of money, they need to go to college and obtain skills that are worth that kind of money.
quote: Steve Guttag
If a theatre can't afford a projection staff that meet that sort of minimal condition (and others...provide a clean and well run theatre in other respects too), then yes it should close...it is a failing business that is on the edge. Either the community is not supporting the business because they have other forms of entertainment they value more or perhaps the area is overscreened and is hurting all players.
Ahh, I see.. So in order to protect the booth workers, we should close and put them all out of work? That makes a lot of sense there Steve. Is my town overscreened? No, we are the only player in this town of 20,000... However I am up against some megas in Fresno. The fact that I am holding my own with a 6 screen slope vs the 20th busiest theatre in the nation 25 minutes away seems to say that my place is not the piece of pooh you are trying to make it out to be. Or perhaps you think that all these small town folks are undeserving of a theatre, and they all should have to drive.
We are not a failing business on the edge, nor are we welfare for people whose ambitions in life end at running a 6 screen booth. If someone wants to make 50k as an operator, then they need to move their arse to a bigger city, and get into a bigger theatre that can afford such wages. Face it Steve, some jobs out there will not allow you to get your 2 story house in the suburbs with a ski boat and matching SUVs. Certainly you won't find that running a single screen changeover - no matter how much you gripe about it.
quote: Steve Guttag
The business is showing movies...thats why they are called movie theatres and not cafes. The minimum level of quality such a business should provide with a medium like film is someone to make sure the product is presented properly.
And I have those people Steve... And, oddly enough, I don't have to pay them more than I make. Why don't they need the money? Probably because they are college kids who live with their parents...
Steve, go open your own theatre, run it with the "philosophy" you advocate above, and we will see if you last 6 months.
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brad Miller
Administrator
Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99
|
posted 04-09-2005 06:06 PM
This has nothing to do with union or non-union, but I'm going to jump in here before Steve does because I see something that is a common problem in the industry...
quote: Jim Ziegler
Steve, I have, personally, trained high school and college kids to be damn fine operators. Running a booth is not something that requires a 2 year apprenticeship. Training a quality operator takes a matter of weeks for the basics, with continuing training after the basics are mastered. Maybe I am just better at training than you are...
This is a difference of opinion, specifically being how high your standards are. I have met tons of people and of those people the vast majority will babble to no end about how incredible the condition of their prints are and this and that, yet there have only been a few theaters (I could count them on one hand) that I was TRULY impressed with. The rest I just smiled and waited until I was out in the car to roll my eyes and wonder why they think that having those dirt specs (and even occasional scratches) are acceptable in ANY form.
You may *think* your 2 week trainees are putting on a fabulous show, but odds are you just don't know any better. One has to SEE film done TRULY right before they can see the difference in what they *think* is film done right, and I guarandamntee you that you will never see that at ANY Cinemark (which is if I remember correctly where you were trained as to what a good presentation is).
I will swing by your theater the next time I am out there and provide a full "no bs" report on the condition of your prints. I won't judge your theater based upon things that are out of most projectionist's control such as comfy seating, or the sound systems and HVAC noise, etc. I will ONLY judge your projectionist's skill in the quality of the prints, and I will be starting with the first frame of film to hit the screen right to the last frame of the rating band, including the quality of splices and any specs of dirt I see anywhere on the screen. Odds are you won't agree with my standards, but Steve's standards are in line with my own.
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99
|
posted 04-09-2005 06:42 PM
quote: Brad Miller
You may *think* your 2 week trainees are putting on a fabulous show, but odds are you just don't know any better. One has to SEE film done TRULY right before they can see the difference in what they *think* is film done right, and I guarandamntee you that you will never see that at ANY Cinemark (which is if I remember correctly where you were trained as to what a good presentation is).
2 week trainees? More like 6 weeks before they are turned loose on thier own. I have a three tiered training standard. Tier one must be complete before an operator can work alone. Tier 2 is intermediate level items, and training on those start as soon as tier 1 is complete. Tier 3 are advanced items that are, in many chains, items that engineers would be called out for.
As for my training in what is a good presentation, that came from Dickinson Theatres back when it was an awesome little company to work for. A lot of what I know was taught to me by their booth trainer, Kevin White, who is one of the most knowledgeable people I have head the pleasure to work with. In addition to Kevin, I learned quite a bit from my GM there, Heath Thomas, who, at the time at least, was on his way to becoming an engineer.
I learned a lot from Cinemark as well, but, that was because I was left with a 20 screen booth without much engineering support for most of my time there. Frequesntly, I would get myself in trouble at Cinemark for spending money on "unnecessary" items such a Filmguard, artists tape, neumade splcing tape, etc.
Would you find problems out here Brad? I'm sure you would. There are quite a few things I want to get corrected and quite a bit of training I need to do with some of my people. At the same time, the improvements in our presentations and in the training level of our operators since I took over this theatre have been dramatic. While we have not - yet - reached a level of perfection, our presentations are superior to those theatres around us.
The next time you are out in the valley Brad, by all means, stop by. I welcome any ideas or suggestions you have.
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001
|
posted 04-09-2005 08:16 PM
I would LOVE to see your 6 week trainee be able to trouble shoot and repair ANY type of sound, mechanical or electrical problem that may arise...ESPECIALLY if it would mean a dark screen for several days until a repair tech could get on site! ![[Wink]](wink.gif) ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Good lord...how many times have several weeks wasted on a $5.15 kid who could not grasp the basic concepts, did not try to learn, and did not really give a shit!
A case in point: at the last major booth I worked, there were a few kids that upper management (not me) insisted in having in the booth. While we did have a tight schedule, many of these kids would goof off big time, leaving a few others holding the bag, so to speak. Among the goofing off...turning off the booth lights and taking a nap as time allowed, pencil-whipping paperwork on daily tasks which they never did, late starts because they were goofing-off in the down-stairs arcade, etc, etc!
| IP: Logged
|
|
Peter Kerchinsky
Master Film Handler
Posts: 326
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: Jan 2002
|
posted 04-09-2005 08:32 PM
Jim
Why the hell are you and your company dead set on paying someone a decent wage. That's what it sounds like in your last post. You guys must have a really low cost-of-living status there. $12.00 an hour here doesn't get you squat. No decent place to live, no decent food, no way to get around etc.
I believe what everone here is saying about wages, union or non-union, is paying a popcorn shoveler $5.15 an hour to run booths is crazy. Like mentioned earlier, once that person has a failure who do you call. A tech who can charge $50 to $75 or more an hour to open a hand-douser, change a lamp, repair a downed sound system etc. Do you people care if a house goes down for the night with lost revenues and pissed off customers.
Yes, it'all in training, but 2-6 weeks. C'mon.
Another question, how many businesses do you know of that have closed because the help was asking for too much money. Only Wal-Mart pulls that crap with employees who want to unionize.
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001
|
posted 04-09-2005 10:12 PM
Union Projectionists were ousted in Tucson in the early 1980's.
Plitt owned some beautiful 1 and 2 screen large-format theatres, notably the El Dorado and the Catalina. Mann owned the 2 screen Buena Vista, and the crappy Park Mall 4-plex.
Cineplex-Odeon then acquired Plitt. Amid community protest, Cineplex-Odeon tore down these once proud theatres and replaced them with what their corporate lawyers promised to be magnificant entertainment palaces. These of course were multi-plexes, that turned out to be far less than what was promised to the community!
AMC operated what was then the largest multi-plex in AZ...the El Con 6. They also owned the Cineworld 4. And the El Con 6 has no relation to the current Century El Con 20....they are/were at different areas of the mall.
Anyhow, the ousting of the IATSE Projectionists co-incided with the construction of these multi-plexes.
At that time, Tucson had very limited entertainment venues, so the destruction of these movie palaces and the ousting of IATSE was big news, and several articles can be found in the archives of the Arizona Daily Star and the Tucson Citizen...all of which are available at the Arizona Histrical Society.
Anyhow, the Cineplex-Odeon and AMC corporate lawyers, obviously people with no knowledge of film-handling, pushed for the elimination of IATSE, because in their words, automation made Projectionists obsolete and that Projectionists did not want to evolve with the changing times. In their words, due to automation, booths could run completely unattended, and that the only need for a Projectionist in a booth was for an approximate 30 second thread-up time and hit the start button!
IATSE countered with what would happen to presentation quality, and guess what...where the ever correct!
Cheers
K.
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM
6.3.1.2
The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion
and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.
|
Home
Printer-friendly view of this topic