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Topic: Union Projectionists
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Brad Miller
Administrator
Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99
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posted 04-10-2005 05:23 PM
quote:
What's your turnover rate in the booth?
Of the people I have trained, we have lost one who was terminated for misconduct. In my first month there, I also termed 2 others, but hadn't invested any time in them. One also was promoted to management.
Then quite possibly you have one of those RARE situations where you don't treat your staff like warm droppings of cow shit. Far too many management teams out there see their workers as nothing more than a number and give little respect to them. I've said it before, respect is often worth more than $$$.
Still though the attitude that "they're living with their parents so they don't need to make a livable wage" is bullshit. Just how exactly do you expect for them to GET OUT OF THE HOUSE??? Apparently it will never happen when working for you, so as such you are forcing them to live a lifetime with their parents, or you are forcing them to work for you for a little bit and then leave...thus high turnover. It sounds like in this particular instance you have guys who don't aspire to stop being a wart on their parent's asses. That's sad.
quote:
"One has to SEE film done TRULY right before they can see the difference in what they *think* is film done right, and I guarandamntee you that you will never see that at ANY Cinemark.
Brad, I was just thinking about this comment.. There are still several Cinemarks out there with union guys - do you apply this statement equally to them? The only union Cinemark booth I was staffed by a guy who was severely lacking in training. You know, a visiting AM (me) should not have to show a union operator with Buzztrack is and how to use it.
Again as has been said before, that would all depend on the particular local. As has been stated many times before, some locals are fantastic beyond words (such as local 249) and others aren't worth a flip. I always forget Cinemark has union houses, since they so dearly hate unions and will do any form of union busting they can to get rid of them whether they are one of the good locals or not.
Let's look at this seriously for a minute, who are their techs? They are "booth managers" promoted to being a "tech" just so that they don't have to hire out NCS or whomever was handling their contracts. From the horror stories I get in emails about all the time, I'm not sure if they currently have even ONE truly qualified "tech" in their chain. (I think they got pretty lucky in one or two situations in the past such as Mr.Stankey, but that's certainly not the norm.) You can figure out how the rest plummets from there.
By the way, I think this REALLY needs repeating...
quote: Louis Bornwasser
This is not really a Union versus NON arguement, but an arguement of competence vs. incompetence.
Incompetence will always prevail without proper training and a respectable pay. It's just not going to happen.
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Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 04-10-2005 05:44 PM
quote:
Usually, you should have a spare part cabinet in your booth for just this kind of occasion. But if you do not, ah well, Granger or your local electrical supply store should have a contactor relay as well as the diodes in stock. And of course your local ACE Hardware will have the needed wire and connector terminals, and that means wiring with the correct OEM safety ratings for that application!
This was 10:00 at night. I would be hard pressed to find a McDonalds open in Fresno at 10:00 at night, let alone Granger or a Hardware store. The most I have in this town is a Home Depot, which closes at 9:00. As for on hand parts, obviously I can't keep everything, and that is one of the things we did not have on the shelf.
quote: Darryl Spicer
I have had contactors go out do to thunderstorms causing brief power failures and quick power returns or partial returns taking out the contactor. I was able to get the show back on screen by turning the power off at the main breaker and pulling the wires from the contactor and tieing each wire with it's associated wire on the other side of the contactor.
Unfortunately, this contractor, when it went, destroyed a great deal of the wiring going into it, along with about 20% of the contactor. Bypassing it really wasn't an option due to the destroyed wiring, lack of any slack in the system, and every hardware store being closed.
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
This is really a hopeless argument with a hopeless stooge. Unfortunately Jim is the type that assists in lowering the overall quality we see constantly falling in theatres day in and day out by not having the insight to pay for quality help.... that btw doesn't
Whatever Mark...
You don't know me or my operation. With the extent of the damage, and the parts on hand, and the fact that everything was closed, you would not have been able to save this show either.
Mark, you need to learn the economic realities of the business world. I am not an LA megaplex, I am a small town slope multi holding my own against some really big stadium theatres within 30 minutes of me. Since taking over this theatre, I have signifigantly improved the overall operaton, but especially the booth operation. Our presentaions are night and day better than anyone in our area.
Some of you guys need to realize that there is a differnce between what you view as the ideal and the economic realites that are presant. To pay people $12 a hour here I would have to elevate ticket prices beyond what most people in this town could afford to pay. Like I said, I am not some big city mega doing 10 million a year in the box office. I am a small town 6 screen that exists to serve the local population. If the local population can't afford to come here, then what use is this theatre? You want to see exhibition dry up real fast Mark - price the movie goinging experience out of the budget of the typical family.
If you knew me Mark, you would know that I pay people what I can. While at Cinemark, the staff in my department were the highest paid in the building - some of my operators were making more than most of the managers, not to mention making more than the union operator Cinemark had in Omaha. While there, and here, I have alwyas had my eye out to get the best people I could (at Cinemark, I had a retired engineer as an operator and my lead assistant went on to become an engineer, here, the only person with booth experience that has walked through the door was hired immediatly) Hell, I had some USHERS making close to manager pay as well. You know why? I could afford to do it, and could justify it to my superiors who were impressed with the very low turnover and high level of training in my department.
Since taking over this theatre I have pushed for raises for deserving personnel. At the same time, I can't afford to pay high school and college kids $10 or $12 dollars an hour, nor do they need such pay to survive.
You know what Mark, maybe you should actually find out about some things about people before branding them the anti-christ of the theatre industry, but, that does take much more work the personally villifying them.
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Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 04-10-2005 07:46 PM
quote: Brad Miller
Then quite possibly you have one of those RARE situations where you don't treat your staff like warm droppings of cow shit. Far too many management teams out there see their workers as nothing more than a number and give little respect to them. I've said it before, respect is often worth more than $$$.
I have quite a bit of respect for my people and will spend a ton of time developing the ones that show promise. At one point, at the Cinemark 20 screen I was at, every depeartment head in the building had come out of the ranks of my staff. From that organization alone, 4 people have moved on to become General Managers, one has become a booth engineer and one is now my second in command here. I am still in contact with quite a few of them.
quote: Brad Miller
Still though the attitude that "they're living with their parents so they don't need to make a livable wage" is bullshit. Just how exactly do you expect for them to GET OUT OF THE HOUSE???
If I were in a chain situation, I would encourage them to move up the ladder to positions of greater responsibility. I don't view running a 6 screen booth as a career possibility. Realize Brad, of my booth staff, all are students. Additionally, being an independant with one location, career positions here are limited. Each of them should endevor to something greater than this. My goal is to make them the best they can be during the few years I will have them why they are still in school.
quote: Brad Miller
It sounds like in this particular instance you have guys who don't aspire to stop being a wart on their parent's asses. That's sad.
No, I have students that will move on when their education is done. Most will probably leave the business, but, a few may stay in it, and obtain positions at bigger complexes. Really, the same applies to me as well. I am not going to spend the rest of my career at a 6 screen. I am hopeful that we will add locations, but, the chances of that are not real good as the owners are appraoching retirement age and their willingness to take risks is shrinking. Odds are, in the future, I will probably be moving on myself to something bigger and better.
quote: Brad Miller
Let's look at this seriously for a minute, who are their techs? They are "booth managers" promoted to being a "tech" just so that they don't have to hire out NCS or whomever was handling their contracts. From the horror stories I get in emails about all the time, I'm not sure if they currently have even ONE truly qualified "tech" in their chain. (I think they got pretty lucky in one or two situations in the past such as Mr.Stankey, but that's certainly not the norm.) You can figure out how the rest plummets from there.
I have seen good and bad with Cinemark techs. The one in place when I left, Mike Hartman, seemed to know his stuff. The one I had before him usually broke more than he fixed. I am remided of a situation where he was called in to fix two down SRD units with Christie basment readers. The readers only needed minor adjustments. When he left, 5 SRDs were down, two of them with shorted out CCD boards in the basement readers. To fix this, this particular engineer ordered 2 *complete* soundheads. He then left, leaving me to explain it to the RL...
Of course, the NCS tech in the area was just as bad. I left a standing order that if he showed up, he was not to be let into the booth. If we had an emergency we could not handle on our own, one of my operators dad was an engineer with a locally based firm called LJ Technologies that we could call. We only needed to do that once, to help us "macguyver" a mostly destroyed autofocus assembliy until a new one arrived.
quote: Gordon McLeod
If the wireing around it was destroyed it indicates that the were loose connections for an extended period of time which I I serviced the theatre would be considered neglegance on the part of teh booth staff to have not checked it monthly as they are required to do and would probably been the termination of the staff responsible
And you guys think I'm an asshole.. Seriously, I don't know what caused it. It is clear there was a small electrical fire until the breaker tripped. It very well could have been caused by a loose connection, or the contactor may just have failed. Either way, I don't really want my crew poking around in the wiring. I would rather lose a show to a contactor getting toasted than having one of my staff getting hurt because they missed a breaker.
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Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 04-10-2005 08:39 PM
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Its not that I am villifying I am just reading your general attitude that clearly speaks for itself. I wouldn't exactly consider Fresno a small town "Hooterville" either. Been there quite a few times over the last decade.
I'm not in Fresno, I'm in a small town about 20 minutes south. But, Fresno is hooterville... I have never seen a city board up and shut down at 9pm - until I moved to Fresno (which is really bad considering I grew up in Kansas)...
Mark - my attitude is that a business must remain solvent and that an open business paying its booth staff $7.00 a hour is better for everyone than a closed business paying no one anything.
What I pay people depends on a number of factors - what I can afford, what their job performance is, what their skill level is, etc. I am as generous as I can be. Sometimes it is not as much as I would like, other times it is. I realize that I can't pay enough to lure in a skilled engineer. But, I do pay enough to get some bright and trainable students in here and to keep them happy while they gain their education.
quote: Sam D. Chavez
Regarding the contactor wiring that burned up; this was most certainly caused by loose connections over time. Whether anyone would have found them in time to save the show is open to question.
That seems to be the general concensus.. I'll open up the others when I am in doing maintenance this week and see if anything is getting loose.
quote: Sam D. Chavez
I find myself feeling some sympathy for Jim. While he does appear to be pig headed (and I know from pig headed) he has answered all questions put to him, and his situation is not all that different from a lot of small town movie house scenarios.
I'm not pig headed, just determined.. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote: Sam D. Chavez
The audience just is not there in abundance. I have a friend who runs a small hand built 4-plex/video rental store with video arcade. His presentation standards are pretty good with a CP500, 650 with EX and a CP50.
Tell me about it.. My attedance is a whopping 350 right now.. On a good Sunday I am pushing twice that, but the product over the last several weeks hasn't been all that big for my crowd. Luckily for us, our market is growing and we are starting to pull some folks down from Fresno, which has been quite a trick since Regal has us majorly outgunned in the media.
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 04-11-2005 11:38 AM
quote: Jim Ziegler
Very well Steve, in light of your statement, I have to revise my views. If running a changeover booth is just as easy as running a platter booth, then I can't see a reason why a union would EVER have been justified.
As seems to be a trend with you...again you get it wrong...a union is an employee choice, not an employer...what you should have said to make your point was that a projectionist was never needed....wrong but seemingly your position on the job.
quote: Jim Ziegler
Steve, I have, personally, trained high school and college kids to be damn fine operators. Running a booth is not something that requires a 2 year apprenticeship. Training a quality operator takes a matter of weeks for the basics, with continuing training after the basics are mastered. Maybe I am just better at training than you are...
While it is certainly possible...it is quite unlikely. I've trained operators too that have been in HS and college or of college age. It is more likely that you don't know what a "fine" operator is. More likely, I have higher standards than you do.
quote: Jim Ziegler
Steve, an operators job is not worth that in the modern labor market. Why would I pay $12 an hour (more than the managers get paid) when I can get someone to do the same job for much less.
Jim, you are certainly entitled to your opinion and have expressed it many times. Why would you pay $12/hour when you don't have to (nor find its value)...because your employees have not unionized to bargain for reasonable wages and working conditions. The fact you abuse your managers by also not paying them a living wage does not make it right to not pay others properly.
quote: Jim Ziegler
Some jobs Steve are not worth $12 an hour, or $25 an hour, etc. If someone is desiring to make that kind of money, they need to go to college and obtain skills that are worth that kind of money.
Jim, no arguement there on the value of some jobs. I would not go to college to obtain such a low wage as $12/hour though nor would it be wise for others...college trained jobs tend to command a much higher pay. $12/hour jobs are "blue-collar" and not terribly high paying.
quote: Jim Ziegler
Ahh, I see.. So in order to protect the booth workers, we should close and put them all out of work?
Snappy comeback...but a bit beneith you. The point is not a business to support a particular job but a business that is so finacially insolvent that it has to undercut its staff in order to make it. Taking that a bit further...pay everyone, including yourself, the minimum wage required by law...eventually the business will find someone that will take the position becase they are desparate enough...it is absurd to think that it will be providing a service worth paying for though.
quote: Jim Ziegler
However I am up against some megas in Fresno. The fact that I am holding my own with a 6 screen slope vs the 20th busiest theatre in the nation 25 minutes away seems to say that my place is not the piece of pooh you are trying to make it out to be. Or perhaps you think that all these small town folks are undeserving of a theatre, and they all should have to drive.
Where as I tend to service small town theatres...I wouldn't think of telling them they are not deserving of a theatre...but, then again, if the town doesn't support the business to the point of providing a living wage for the service rendered...then the business is not holding its own, persay...it is doing it by undercutting its workers with a take it or leave it attitude. I've seen theatres hold their own when a mega moves in...but if the indy theatre ran their place like they were the only show in town (provide the minimum to get by) then they often close after the new theatre opens.
quote: Jim Ziegler
Face it Steve, some jobs out there will not allow you to get your 2 story house in the suburbs with a ski boat and matching SUVs. Certainly you won't find that running a single screen changeover - no matter how much you gripe about it.
Face it Jim...you don't know what you are talking about. Who here was talking about a projectionist living a life of luxuary...just a living wage that can provide for their family...there is a difference...we were talking about $12/hour job yet you jump to the $50K wage again...why are you harping on that? Believe it or not...the single screen changeover houses tend to be the ones with the operators since what the single screen has to offer is quality over their competition or they are screening rooms where perfection is expected from its projection.
quote: Jim Ziegler
And I have those people Steve... And, oddly enough, I don't have to pay them more than I make. Why don't they need the money? Probably because they are college kids who live with their parents...
That is a possibiliy but it is also none of your business as to their status in life. You don't have to pay them more because they have not unionized for a better wage.
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Jeffry L. Johnson
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 809
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 11-25-2005 03:11 PM
Project This
quote:
PROJECT THIS … Ever since Cleveland Cinema’s president Jon Forman laid off his projectionists last year, their union has been a thorn in his side. Members occasionally erect a giant inflatable rat outside the box office.
Forman claims he offered the union a service agreement to maintain the projectors but they passed on it. Union reps claim the offer was made when they were still running the projectors; if they had known they’d be kicked out, they would have taken the service contract. After the layoffs, Forman wouldn’t bring the service agreement back to the table, saying it was an illegal contract.
Last week the battle came to a head when the National Labor Relations Board passed down a ruling in favor of the union. In his opinion, Judge Martin Linsky did not miss the irony when he stated: “Having proposed [the service agreement] and now saying it would be illegal would be similar to a person to be sentenced for killing his parents throwing himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan.”
John Galinac, business agent for Local 160, calls it a victory. “It forces [Forman] to sit with me and bargain in good faith,” says Galinac. “There may be some back wages involved. We’ll negotiate. I’m just waiting for his phone call.”
In the meantime, Forman didn’t return ours.
The loser, ultimately, could be the Cedar Lee audience. Theaters don’t make money off the price of admission. Since studios charge outrageous fees to rent their movies, the only way to turn a profit is to charge $3.50 for a small popcorn. Union wages cut into that black ink even more.
The real negotiation should be with the studios. If they charged Forman what the prints were actually worth, union wages could be paid and customers wouldn’t have to take out a loan for a snack.
Don’t hate the player. Hate the game.
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