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Topic: Anyone consuming HD or Blu-ray?
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 12-12-2007 12:16 AM
As I stated in numerical terms in a post earlier in this thread, "standard definition" DVD is a market more than 50 times larger than the Hi-Def disc market.
Most people still have standard definition televisions. A lot more people than that only have standard definition DVD players for their movie playback. Standard DVD, while somewhat compromised, is not all that bad. Decent quality picture. Pretty damned good quality sound. Gotta try hard to get lots of "John Q Public" types to spend thousands of dollars to upgrade to something better.
Right now, Hollywood is not making a good case at all to get people to upgrade.
Their average output of movie quality is derivative shit.
I will not be made to give one good Goddamn about yet another freaking send-up of a TV series, comic book, graphic novel or sequel of a shitty movie that never should have been made.
Hollywood needs to be making better movies. That is the very basic thing they need to deliver to expect people to upgrade to new movie players and buy more discs. That point goes well above the minutiae of the HD-DVD versus Blu-Ray format war. Right now the average quality of product is shit regardless of what format is used in encoding the product to optical disc.
Shitty quality movies is the foremost largest problem facing Hollywood and Asian electronics companies in getting American consumers to pony up thousands of dollars to get into the next generation. Really. I'm hardly buying any standard definition DVDs anymore and I'm not even in the mindset of holding off for Hi-Def like others claim to be. There is simply not enough movies being released that are worth viewing more than once if even at all. Those idiots in Hollywood need to wrap their brains around that concept just for once. If they cannot be brought to do that, then, in this global economy they may invite lots of people from Europe, Asia and the Middle East to stomp their asses right out of business or at least hurt them pretty badly. Detroit sure got stung by it. Does the brand name "Honda" ring a bell?
The technical shit between two optical disc formats of the same size footprint is a very minor thing.
The quality of the movies overall is the really big problem. Hollywood has been infected with the same stale crap that has sent the music industry in New York and Nashville reeling onto its knees.
With those points being made, I am really not convinced at all that if we had only one high definition optical disc format (be it HD-DVD, Blu-Ray or some hybrid of both technologies) that the situation would be any different. I still think the HD players would be selling at relatively low levels and that most people would be hesitant at upgrading.
The simple fact is that Hollywood has not been putting out any truly "must have" titles lately for people to own permanently on tangible discs in their bookshelves.
[ 12-12-2007, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: Bobby Henderson ]
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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 12-12-2007 11:07 AM
I think this phenomenon is present in the music industry as well.
It might be a function of my age (coming up on 40), but the music today doesn't seem as collectible as it was back in the 80's. The declining quality of music has done as much to stunt sales of CD's as piracy and other factors, IMHO. When people figure that there are only one or two good tracks on a CD, the value they assign to that CD is lower. Hence the popularity of buying single tracks through iTunes.
Now there are a lot of factors that have hit the music industry that come into play (you couldn't buy singles in the 80's and put them in your walkman, you had to buy the cassette "album"), but it comes down to the value assigned to the purchase.
Movie studios and big box retailers have conditioned people to expect to pay no more than about $15 for new releases. They've also shown that if they wait a couple of months, they can get them for $5-10 on sale.
With HD, they've priced the releases high ($25-$40) and the discs (excepting the HD DVD/DVD Combo discs) are not compatible with the DVD players that everyone already has in their homes, cars, portable units, etc. Even though HD DVD players are relatively inexpensive at around $200 for the basic models, people have been conditioned to expect $50-$75 for a decent quality player which may also have upconverting capabilities (advertised as "HD quality").
Plus, look at the big HD releases from the past month. All sequels. Except for Ratatouille and Cars, and both are animated (limiting the audience), and only the former was a day-and-date release. Therefore, the value that people assign to releases like this is lower. I'd much rather get a movie from Netflix than pay full price, no matter whether it is standard or high definition. The convenience and low cost outweighs the desire to purchase collect these titles.
It's unfortunate that so much energy is being expended bickering over which format is better than the other. The sales volume is so low that the percentages of sales between the two are insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
I really wish the studios would get with the program and release day-and-date on both formats and systematically begin going through their catalogs and releasing titles on a regular basis, starting with their Oscar nominees and the movies that already have HD masters created.
Take time with some titles to do all-out special editions, but for the most part, grab the EPK making of docs from the SD versions (if HD versions are not available), and make them available for less than $20.
I would even go so far as to say that the SD-only version should be abolished in favor of the HD DVD/DVD combo disc format so that the volume can be higher, compatibility is maintained, and the economy of scale from that volume kicks in. This approach has been hinted at, so it wouldn't surprise me if it were to happen in the next year.
Once again, the studios are the ones holding the cards.
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Scott Norwood
Film God
Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 12-12-2007 01:02 PM
It's funny how spoiled people are now. People will spend $1k and up on a TV set, but will balk at a $200 HD player and $25 disks. Compare that to the cost of even a cheap VCR or laserdisc player in the mid-1980s ($500+), and the costs of tapes/disks at that time ($50-100 each, typically, in 1980s dollars). Meanwhile, quality is hugely improved (with respect to picture and sound, not the build quality of the equipment, which has gotten worse). Not to mention that there are no consumer formats on the horizon that are likely to improve upon 1080p resolution, making it unlikely that existing disks will be superceded in the forseeable future.
I don't really like watching movies on TV and don't have an HD set, but I don't understand why people who do keep complaining about the cost of the equipment or the disks, especially since the TV is the most expensive item. This stuff has never been cheaper or better.
By contrast, the record industry still thinks that people will spend $18 for a full-length album on CD, which is laughable, considering the quality of popular music over the last few years. I think that I may be getting old as well (just turned 31 in October), but I can't think of too many recent popular albums that would be of any interst to me (nor could I name any top 40 songs). Most of the recorded music that I've purchased for the last half-decade or so has been used CDs/LPs and very little in the way of recent releases.
I have no interest in purchasing recorded music in a compressed DRM-ridden format (a la itunes). If someone would sell me uncompressed WAV files at a substantial price discount from the retail CD package, I might consider the possibility if I didn't want to buy a complete album.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 12-12-2007 01:55 PM
quote: Scott Jentsch
I would even go so far as to say that the SD-only version should be abolished in favor of the HD DVD/DVD combo disc format so that the volume can be higher, compatibility is maintained, and the economy of scale from that volume kicks in.
I would be in favor of that only if the HD-DVD/DVD combo format wasn't pockmarked with replication problems. It certainly must be a big challenge to sandwich together a dual layer DVD and dual layer HD-DVD back to back.
quote: Scott Norwood
I have no interest in purchasing recorded music in a compressed DRM-ridden format (a la itunes).
Lossy compression is why I never got into the whole iTunes thing (that, as well as the very closed, proprietary nature of the iTunes system).
Perhaps a few years from now when much faster Internet connection speeds are common people will be downloading lossless LPCM music files perhaps even in 24-bit/96kHz resolution and maybe even multichannel as well. For now, I still buy a limited amount of music on regular old CD and buy an occaisional DVD with concert footage or music videos.
Another thing working against systems like iTunes: YouTube. It's really surprising just how many music videos are uploaded to YouTube. The audio and video quality isn't all that great right now, but I expect that to improve over time. The variety of what you can see is really pretty good. I think the concept of YouTube is a faint hint of how television broadcasting will be modeled 10 years from now.
Both the music industry and movie industry will have to make many changes to their business models. The people running those creative industries have been forcing Wall Street style principals upon them. That just doesn't work. It's a contradiction. To make the point in more basic terms, Wall Street is trying to force predictability and same-ness into creative businesses that only succeed when ideas are new and not the same old crap. New ideas scare business people because they don't know how the public is going to react to them. Unpredictability. The stock market hates that.
The problem is they've been forcing so much same-ness and predictability down creative product pipe-lines for so long that those entire industries are now completely polluted. The general public is not enthusiastic about the product anymore because it stinks of being the same old shit. Hardly any of it is fresh and new.
The business people made matters worse by merging, consolidating and compartmentalizing these creative businesses even further in vain attempts to gain tighter control on emerging creative ideas. This has resulted in a lot of great potential talent out there being completely locked out of the system. And the product being allowed to come out of the system has grown even more stale.
Some of the people running major record labels, movie studios, etc. have been using these strategies for more than a decade in part to serve the very basic purpose of covering their own asses.
When really good, original, truly creative ideas come out of music companies and movie companies other people at other rival creative companies lose their jobs. They get fired for not finding the next big thing. When everything looks the same and sounds the same, media executives sleep much easier at night. They don't think they're going to be one-upped by a competitor -or at least if it happens, that rival's success won't be all that great and others won't see bad consequences. But that relative comfort and safety is not real.
Look at Clearchannel. Over the last couple of years, that giant media company has been cutting up itself and selling big parts piece by piece. They sold their outdoor advertising billboard business. Lately they have been unloading lots of radio stations. Their zeal to make music programming very predictable hurt the radio stations. An executive I know at one formerly Clearchannel-owned radio station said the company did lots of things to make working there not any fun anymore. Lots of people quit. This person I know predicts there may be no more Clearchannel after the next 2-3 years.
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 12-12-2007 03:24 PM
Seems like everyone has their take on the hidef DVD war. In this article the author reminds us of the many Sony failures and even knows about SDDS which is a bit unusual for a consumer mag. But it becomes pretty ghastly when you actually see all of Sony's failures strung together in a row, which doesn't portend well for Blu-Ray. Although when they had successes, they were big successes, such as Sony Trinitron TVs.
But here, gawk at the flops: 8 Sony Tailspins
8 reasons not to support Blu-Ray
Posted on 2007 under Random News
Here are 8 good reasons you might not want to jump on board with Sony’s Blu-Ray format. Sony has a history of building “technically superior formats”, but at much too high of a cost. This always leads to eventual failure.
Sony HiFD
The Sony HiFD (High capacity Floppy Disk) was an attempt by Sony to replace their own aging 3.5 inch floppy disk, which had proven successful in the mid-1980s war to replace the 5.25 inch floppy disk. This did not happen, however. A few months after launch it emerged that the HiFD suffered from frequent crashes during read/write operations, and had a tendency of having its read rate drop into the low kilobyte per second range, effectively rendering it unusable. Initially it was thought that a new driver could solve these problems – instead, Sony issued a full recall at the start of the following year.
Sony MiniDisc
A MiniDisc (MD) is a magneto-optical disc-based data storage device initially intended for storage of up to 80 minutes of digitalized audio. MiniDisc was announced by Sony in 1991 and introduced January 12, 1992. The MiniDisc was targeted as a replacement for the Philips analog cassette audio tape system. MiniDiscs are popular in Japan as a digital upgrade to cassette tapes, but have not been as popular world-wide.
Sony SDDS
SDDS is a cinema sound system developed by Sony. Digital sound information is recorded on both outer edges of the 35 mm film release print. The system supports up to 8 independent channels of sound: 5 front channels, 2 surround channels and a sub-bass channel. Out of the 1,400 plus films mixed in SDDS, only 97 of them to date have been mixed to support the full 8 channels, mostly because most mixing studios are geared towards producing 5.1 mixes rather than 7.1 mixes. Also the additional sound equipment required for 8 channel SDDS makes it more expensive to install. SDDS is not currently available on any home format.
Sony ATRAC
Adaptive Transform Acoustic Coding (ATRAC) is a family of proprietary audio compression algorithms developed by Sony. MiniDisc was the first commercial product to incorporate ATRAC in 1992. ATRAC allowed a relatively small disc like MiniDisc to have the same running time as CD while storing audio information with minimal loss in perceptible quality. On August 30, 2007 Sony announced that its online music store, Connect Music Services, would no longer support the ATRAC audio format.
Sony Memory Stick
Memory Stick is a removable flash memory card format, launched by Sony in October 1998. The original memory stick was available in sizes up to 128 MB, and a sub-version, Memory Stick Select allows two banks of 128 MB to be on the same card. An 8 GB card was unveiled at the 2006 Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas and, according to Sony, the Memory Stick PRO has a maximum potential size of 32 GB. While the Memory Stick has outlived most other flash memory formats, with a longevity comparable to CompactFlash and Secure Digital (SD), it has never enjoyed as widespread popularity as these competitors; the majority of portable devices that use it are Sony and Sony Ericsson devices. The significant third-party licensees that manufacture Memory Sticks are SanDisk and Lexar.
Sony HiMD
In January 2004, Sony announced the Hi-MD media storage format. With its release in later 2004 came the ability to use newly-developed, high-capacity 1 gigabyte Hi-MD discs, sporting the same dimensions as regular MiniDiscs. In 2006, Sony positioned Hi-MD as a Digital Audio Tape (DAT) alternative, placing the MZ-M200 Hi-MD Walkman under the Pro Audio section of its “Broadcast & Business Solutions Company” website, alongside its flash memory-based recorder, the PCM-D1. Though not a complete failure,it does continue to struggle.
Sony SACD
Super Audio CD (SACD) is a read-only optical audio disc format aimed at providing higher fidelity digital audio reproduction than the Red Book audio CD. Introduced in 2000, it was developed by Sony and Philips Electronics. SACD was in a format war with DVD-Audio, but neither format managed to replace regular audio CDs.
Sony Betamax
Sony’s Betamax is the 1/2 inch home videocassette tape recording format introduced on April 16, 1975 (in market on May 10) and derived from the earlier, professional 3/4 inch U-matic video cassette format. It was the most popular video format in 1983, gaining almost a third of the UK video recorder market, while Sanyo’s VTC5000 was the top selling UK video recorder. By 1985, however, the market had turned sharply towards VHS. Sony’s attempt to dictate an industry standard backfired when JVC, and parent Matsushita (Which owns the brand, Panasonic), made the tactical decision to forgo Sony’s offer of Betamax in favor of JVC’s VHS technology.
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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 12-13-2007 10:45 PM
quote: Larry Myers
I just got a Samsung BDP1400 Blu-ray DVD player at Curcuit City for $299 with 8 mail in Free DVD's. I decided on the Blu-Ray because of my necessary coaxial sound connection that the HD DVD players do not have. Right now I am running component cables so the setting has to be 720P. Even at 720P, the picture looks great projected with my Panasonic Projector. Also the Video Rental House down the street rents Blu Ray discs for $4 @ 5 days. They do not handle HD DVD's.
I will get myself a HDMI cable and set it up to 1080P within the week
I do wish that the Samsung 1400 was a better player, because the price is very nice. Buying from a local place with a good return policy is a good idea; it's a good way to cover yourself.
Would you be willing to try something? You don't mention which model Panasonic projector you have, but if it's 1080p capable, I think it would be an interesting experiment to send it a 1080i signal and judge the picture quality against the 720p (being upsampled to 1080 by the projector) and then when you get your HDMI setup, compare the 1080i input to 1080p input.
I've been really happy with the 720p output that I'm getting from my Sony LCD projector and Samsung DLP RPTV. It would be nice to go up to a 1080 projector, but that's going to take some time to accomplish.
If you want to put the 1400 through its paces so you can determine whether you're going to keep it or not, you should visit the AVS Forum and check out the Samsung BD-P1400 owner's thread for what others have been experiencing. They might have some examples that you can check out for yourself to see if you also experience those problems, and even if you do, how serious they are for you, and if Samsung does any more firmware updates in the meantime.
Please keep us posted on your experiences!
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