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Author Topic: Dolby's new sound system
Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

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From: Lawton, OK, USA
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 - posted 05-13-2012 04:01 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Joe Redifer
Yeah, but that doesn't answer my question about it. Can you allocate clusters of speakers to act as one channel? Are you allowed to EQ those channels? You're not allowed to EQ individual channels in ATMOS from what Steve Guttag has said. I think the bottom line is that nobody here knows jack shit about ATMOS yet.
Yeah, I know I'm doing a fair amount of spit-balling regarding Atmos. But some of the issues we're discussing, such as backward compatibility with 5.1/7.1 LPCM tracks, is so obvious it would be embarrassing for the Atmos processor not to be able to address it.

For all the Atmos processor can do with up to 128 simultaneous audio objects on a movie time line it would seem fairly easy for the system to be able to group numerous side wall surround speakers into divided logical arrays for 5.1 or 7.1 function. If Dolby hasn't built it into the Atmos processor they need to work on an update to make it happen. The same should probably hold true for being able to manually EQ the channels in Atmos mode or 5.1/7.1 mode (in addition to the automatic EQ setup it apparently has).

I wonder if anyone from Dolby is lurking/creeping in this thread?

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

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 - posted 05-13-2012 05:45 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Of course it will handle it, I just want to know how.

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Scott Jentsch
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 - posted 05-15-2012 05:29 PM      Profile for Scott Jentsch   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Jentsch   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, I'll take a shot at a theory and see if others can shoot prodigious amounts of holes into it...

Based on my evolving understanding of Atmos, the idea is to have the speakers installed (with the number and placement based on the possible installation parameters), and then the processor knows where each speaker/driver is located.

On the origination side, the Atmos-enabled software encodes the soundtrack as a series of objects in a virtual sphere of sound (or more likely a hemisphere if you will, at least until the next generation of Atmos places drivers in each seat cushion). Where each sound object should be in the hemisphere is then mapped to one or more speakers/drivers available in the auditorium.

Let's say there is an auditorium with speakers in their standard positions (three on the front wall, three on the right, three on the back, three on the left) above ear level. Additionally, there are three on the ceiling, an additional three on the front wall, and because there was a sale on speakers by the dozen, let's put a speaker in each upper corner.

That gives us an auditorium with 22 speakers total (not counting subs), spread throughout the room. Even though the room is rectangular, the processor can modify delay times to create a hemispherical sound environment.

My thinking is that no matter how many physical speakers are employed in the room, the processor should be able to determine which speaker needs to be used to reproduce any given sound object. If a sound is above your head and towards the screen, the front (screen) speakers may have some of the sound, as would the upper front corners, but the front center upper speaker and the frontmost ceiling center speaker would get the majority of the duty for reproducing that sound.

If you couldn't afford all those speakers right away, the system would make do with whatever you did have installed. The effectiveness is going to be limited by the number of speakers it has to play with.

Does that sound like it might hold water?

This would explain how a 5.1 soundtrack would be handled by the Atmos processor, since it knows where your speakers are and it knows what the source material is. Conversely, an ATMOS processor should be able to take an ATMOS soundtrack and mix it properly for installations that have just a standard 5.1/7.1 system. Such a configuration encourages upgrades, as adding even just a single ceiling speaker would open up quite a bit of that "sphere" of sound above the viewer (but adding more would yield greater results).

Dolby needs to get on the stick right away and put up a registry of ATMOS-equipped theaters, with some sort of rating that tells people how the theater scores on some scale (kind of like the Windows Experience Rating, but more precise). People like to compare numbers, so some sort of measurement/ranking system should be done to reward those theaters that go nuts with their investments.

ATMOS-equipped theaters should have to advertise not only which shows are ATMOS-equipped, but be required to log when the system has been checked and calibrated. The registry would be available for all to see and ATMOS-encoded movies should link to the registry web site, with the ability for people to leave comments.

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Manny Knowles
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 - posted 05-15-2012 05:38 PM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't think Atmos should be required to deal with backward-compatibility processing of 7.1 for 5.1 sites. I see it as an add-on. If a cinema is upgrading to Atmos, they won't ever need to mix anything DOWN to 5.1.

Who knows? 7.1 may have merely been an interim format, to frustrate the "Auro" rollout. Perhaps Atmos will be backward-compatible down to 7.1 -- and "7.1 versions" of DCP's will go away, returning the industry to a single-inventory for DCP's (at least for non-Atmos theatres).

The issue of scalability (of Atmos) concerns me just a little -- I think cinemas should be required to state how many channels they have in place.

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Mike Blakesley
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 - posted 05-15-2012 06:06 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The problem with that though, is there is room size to consider. You might need 50 or 60 speakers in a great big room with an 80 foot screen but you could get by with maybe 15 in a small room. But the sound quality could be fairly close, if everything was matched properly to the room in both situations.

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Joe Redifer
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 - posted 05-15-2012 07:35 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Manny Knowles
If a cinema is upgrading to Atmos, they won't ever need to mix anything DOWN to 5.1.
Except that not all movies will be mixed for ATMOST. And to me ATMOS would be a replacement for any existing sound processor. It would be kind of hard to channel 64 inputs into any existing processor on the market, no? So ATMOS will have to know how to handle standard 5.1 and 7.1 soundtracks. These soundtracks will not exist as sound objects, just super-long streams of Linear PCM, just like a camcorder. So ATMOS will need to know (or be told) which speakers to turn on when a sound comes up in the left surround. And, repeating myself, from what Steve has said everything will be automatic with the technician having no say over anything except number of speakers in the room. But which speakers will it assign?

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Louis Bornwasser
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 - posted 05-15-2012 08:46 PM      Profile for Louis Bornwasser   Author's Homepage   Email Louis Bornwasser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Perhaps 8 channels could be dedicated to standard 7.1 operation. That would seemingly leave enough for ATMOS operation. Louis

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

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 - posted 05-15-2012 11:00 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Indeed, but the way 5.1 and 7.1 are configured now, multiple speakers make up one channel (15 speakers along the left side of your auditorium make you your left surround in a 7.1 configuration, etc). But I imagine with ATMOS the speakers are going to be all over the wall, top to bottom front to back.

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Manny Knowles
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 - posted 05-16-2012 08:34 AM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Joe Redifer
Except that not all movies will be mixed for ATMOST. And to me ATMOS would be a replacement for any existing sound processor.
If it is a complete replacement, it would still need to have the basic 16-channel capability in order to be DCI compliant. So, of course it would be able to play back 7.1 without needing to down mix to 5.1.

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Mike Blakesley
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 - posted 05-16-2012 09:28 AM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Joe Redifer
But I imagine with ATMOS the speakers are going to be all over the wall, top to bottom front to back.
In the demo theater they were just in single rows on each wall, like any normal surround system. The ceiling speakers were in two rows on the ceiling, front to back. I would say the two rows were about 15 to 20 feet from each side wall. I'm not sure what size the screen was, maybe 50-foot.

I suppose the idea of multiple rows of side surround speakers will be brought up for Atmos II! [Big Grin]

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Jeff Kane
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 - posted 05-16-2012 12:57 PM      Profile for Jeff Kane   Email Jeff Kane   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
IMO this'll translate quite well to the home and will likely do wonders to keep Dolby relevant in the home theater venue.

Lots of receivers/pre-amps already have quite sophisticated room-correction software/processing. They also have web interfaces. I imagine it wouldn't be a far leap to have the ability to 'draw' the room and place the speakers accordingly to tell the receiver what's where. Combine that with the auto-EQ that's already possible and the home experience would actually end up markedly improved on ATMOS and standard 5.1/7.1 even if no additional speakers are installed. Maybe.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

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 - posted 05-16-2012 02:13 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A couple Dolby Atmos white papers (in PDF) I downloaded from Dolby's web site had diagrams which clearly showed just one horizontal row of speakers for the side wall surrounds. Atmos adds two additional rows of speakers on the ceiling from the screen to the back of the room.

Dolby Atmos adds more speakers to left and right side surround array to fill the transitional gap between the edge of the screen and side surround speakers. Depending on the theater's configuration more side surround speaker cabinets could be added along the row to tighten the spacing between the side surround speakers. In a 5.1/7.1 mode I imagine Atmos would just use only the limited number of side surround speakers that would have been used previously.

Another odd thing that won't make 5.1/7.1 operation entirely seamless: all of the surround speakers on the side walls and ceiling must be re-aimed toward certain areas of the auditorium. Dolby's PDFs have diagrams that show how the speakers are supposed to be aimed. Those aiming methods are designed for Atmos, but may not be so great for the more diffuse aiming of the standard split/quad surround layout.

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Joe Redifer
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 - posted 05-16-2012 04:25 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Manny Knowles
So, of course it would be able to play back 7.1 without needing to down mix to 5.1.
What? Mixing 7.1 to 5.1 is not what I'm talking about. Go to the back of the line!

quote: Bobby Henderson
A couple Dolby Atmos white papers (in PDF) I downloaded from Dolby's web site had diagrams which clearly showed just one horizontal row of speakers for the side wall surrounds.
Leave it to the guy not in the industry to be the only one able to answer my question, though in fairness Mike did tell of his experience as well. So 5.1 and 7.1 will just use side/back wall speakers then. All of them, like normal.

So basically Atmos just adds a bunch of ceiling surrounds and makes each speaker its own channel and (I presume) some height channels behind the screen as well as subwoofers in every corner?

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Mike Blakesley
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 - posted 05-16-2012 04:39 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It can provide for up to 5 screen channels. Apparently, no limit on the number of subs!

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Steve Guttag
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 - posted 05-16-2012 05:09 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It does prescribe subwoofers for the use with the "surround" information. It "recommends" five screen channels for wider screens.

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