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Topic: Dolby's new sound system

Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-12-2013 12:35 PM

quote: Scott Jentsch
I whipped up a quick search utility:

http://www.bigscreen.com/advsearch/atmos.php

Shortcuts:
Man of Steel (2D)

Man of Steel (3D)

The search results are live, so as showtimes come in, they will be updated.

Thanks for the effort. The Harkins Bricktown 16 doesn't show up in any of those Atmos-equipped theater lists, nor does any movie theater in Oklahoma for that matter.

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Jarod Reddig
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 513
From: Hays, Ks
Registered: Jun 2011

posted 06-13-2013 12:14 AM

Bobby have you heard if Warren theaters have any plans to instal Atmos in either the Wichita or Moore locations?

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-13-2013 11:27 AM

It has been a few months since I last called their offices in Wichita, KS to ask about Atmos. At that time they had no plans to install Dolby Atmos in any of their theaters.

Warren Theaters pretty much has a monopoly on the Wichita, KS market. But there is some competition in Oklahoma City. If Harkins is really installing Atmos in any of the screens at the Bricktown 16 it could pressure Warren into adding Atmos. AMC has an IMAX Digital screen at their Quail Springs Mall theater, but Atmos is a no-go in IMAX-branded theaters. There isn't any IMAX Digital imitation theaters in the area (ETX, XD, RPX, etc.). If Atmos were to be added at any AMC or Cinemark location in the OKC area it would be installed in a "standard" house.

Edit:

I just checked the Harkins Theaters web site again. They now have their Bricktown 16 theater listings showing Man of Steel playing in Dolby Atmos on the Cine Capris screen. I'm thinking about checking it out this weekend. I haven't seen a movie in that particular theater since they were showing film (via a very good Kinoton projector no less). Another note: the Cine Capris will be showing Man of Steel in 2D. That's fine by me.

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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 06-13-2013 02:29 PM

According to their web site, all of Harkins Theatres CineCapri screens are showing Man of Steel in Dolby Atmos.

I've made some inquiries to see if we can get the Atmos designation added for those shows and going into the future.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 06-13-2013 06:35 PM

Is Dolby currently actually requiring certain minimum standards for new Atmos installs? I know there are a whole bunch of specifications out there, but it seems they're just recommendations.

The way the system works, you could just take your existing 5.1 or 7.1 setup and with a minimum amount of rewiring (and depending on your configuration, maybe adding a few amps) and call it Dolby Atmos.

The end result might be slightly better than a normal 5.1 or 7.1 setup for Atmos soundtracks, but should never be as good as an implementation that has the theater blanketed with high power speakers and accompanying amps.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-13-2013 10:11 PM

I'll quote what David Zylstra wrote back on page 16 of this thread:

quote: David Zylstra
I recently completed 3 Atmos installs and per spec each surround speaker is truly supposed to be capable of a peak 105db at the reference position - note that the requirement is peak and not continuous (during setup each individual surround level is set to 85db with some other levels done per array). This is partly why bass management is used for the surrounds - the LF is strengthened to compensate for surrounds that are weak in the LF range (these are not subs for the surrounds, regular bass cabinets work just fine).

This is definitely a game changer in selecting surround speakers - many larger auditoriums will need speakers that cost 2-4X what a normal surround does now - in 2 of our auditoriums we completely replaced all the surrounds as part of the install.

By that description it doesn't sound like many theaters would be able to get away with using the stock surround array speakers they already have unless their existing speakers are already very good.

With as much as the Dolby CP850 costs alone, it would be pretty stupid for any movie theater to install Dolby Atmos in a minimal configuration -something that would seem akin to a 9.1 setup. If the theater is already spending tens of thousands on the CP850 they might as well invest in a reasonably proper Atmos setup. It doesn't necessarily have to mean 64 speakers. But I would hope to walk into an Atmos-equipped auditorium and see more than 2 surround speakers on the ceiling.

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Jarod Reddig
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 513
From: Hays, Ks
Registered: Jun 2011

posted 06-13-2013 11:27 PM

Thank you Bobby. They do indeed have a monopoly in Wichita.

Thats great news about that Harkins. Man Id love to see Man of Steel in 2D Atmos! Ive yet to see an Atmos mixed movie that wasnt in 3D and I don't wanna see every damn thing in 3D. Also have only experienced Atmos in one theater so I wanna hear a different setup. Im defintly gunna plan a trip there as I never mind driving 4 or 5 hours to experience a new theater and make a weekend out of it and let the wife shop.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 06-14-2013 03:35 AM

quote: Bobby Henderson
With as much as the Dolby CP850 costs alone, it would be pretty stupid for any movie theater to install Dolby Atmos in a minimal configuration -something that would seem akin to a 9.1 setup. If the theater is already spending tens of thousands on the CP850 they might as well invest in a reasonably proper Atmos setup. It doesn't necessarily have to mean 64 speakers. But I would hope to walk into an Atmos-equipped auditorium and see more than 2 surround speakers on the ceiling.

I agree, for now it would be strange for a theater to invest in the processor but not in the proper B chain. But prices will probably come down and maybe one of the competing next-gen sound formats will also gain some traction, generating at least some form of competition.

But as I see it, there is no real base-line standard here and anyone that puts a CP850 in, can put a Dolby Atmos logo on their advertising, right?

Has THX already updated their specs for Dolby Atmos? Or are they too busy certifying Logitech speakers, cars and bathtubs?

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 06-14-2013 05:28 AM

Isn't THX still busy with Dolby SR spec'ing?

- Carsten

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-14-2013 08:37 AM

quote: Marcel Birgelen
I agree, for now it would be strange for a theater to invest in the processor but not in the proper B chain.

My point is there's no way to do Atmos on the cheap. The processor already costs a fortune. A theater merely installing the processor and doing as little as possible with speakers and amps is tantamount to somebody buying a Ferrari car body and putting a dinky 4 cylinder economy car engine in it. Why bother with it at all if the job isn't going to be done right.

A theater that can't afford to do Atmos right can put the cost of that CP850 into just transforming an ordinary 5.1/7.1 system into a kick-ass sounding 5.1/7.1 system.

If you show me a theater operator installing Atmos in the cheapest possible configuration I'll show you a theater operator being very stupid with his money. Even if he's just installing the CP850 only to get the Atmos brand onto the marquee and directory ads not enough of the general public have any idea of what Atmos is in order to justify the expense.

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Marco Giustini
Film God

Posts: 2713
From: Reading, UK
Registered: Nov 2007

posted 06-14-2013 02:17 PM

quote: Bobby Henderson
A theater that can't afford to do Atmos right can put the cost of that CP850 into just transforming an ordinary 5.1/7.1 system into a kick-ass sounding 5.1/7.1 system.

I quote that.
Nothing wrong with Atmos, but I think we have forgotten how good a proper 5.1/7.1 system sounds.

But we live in a world where people don't bother asking questions, and they just follow the brand.
Thankfully in this case the Brand is a good one [Smile]

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-14-2013 03:27 PM

Sometimes the brand can do things that are not in the customer's best interests.

Remember the Dolby triple format all in one logo from 1993-95? It combined Spectral Recording, Dolby Stereo and Digital brands into one word mark with the tagline "verify theatre format."

The old theatrical version of Dolby Digital ran at an incredibly low bit rate. It's unacceptable by today's encoding standards -at least for things like DVD, Blu-ray, d-cinema. If not for competition from DTS, Sony, etc. we would probably still be listening to lossy Dolby Digital audio at low bit rates rather than uncompressed Linear PCM.

I don't think Dolby's recent move to brand 7.1 channel LPCM in commercial movie theaters as Dolby Surround 7.1 was a good move.

It remains to be seen what comes of Dolby Atmos. The concept seems very revolutionary. The way it is being marketed and how theaters may deploy Atmos (in a wide variety of minimal to maximum configurations) could end up hurting the fledgling audio format.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 06-14-2013 05:20 PM

quote: Carsten Kurz
Isn't THX still busy with Dolby SR spec'ing?

Maybe they are [Wink]

. But then again, their site is boasting 5.1 and 7.1 setups everywhere, even in your car.

quote: Bobby Henderson
My point is there's no way to do Atmos on the cheap. The processor already costs a fortune. A theater merely installing the processor and doing as little as possible with speakers and amps is tantamount to somebody buying a Ferrari car body and putting a dinky 4 cylinder economy car engine in it. Why bother with it at all if the job isn't going to be done right.

I totally agree that this is the situation right now, but those sound systems tend to hang around for quite some years, so what will be the situation in a few years, when the CP850 has become affordable and yet been replaced with a bunch of new models?

quote: Bobby Henderson
The concept seems very revolutionary.

Dolby Atmos, as far as I know, was actually created by imm sound in Spain (they finally acquired imm sound in july of 2012). They're not the only player in the immersive surround sound industry, a company called Iosono also is focussing on similar technology.

I've listened to both imm sound (before the acquisition by Dolby) and also Dolby Atmos. I've listened to native content on both systems. The possibilities are interesting, but I was honestly a bit disappointed. It sounded like super-charged surround sound, not like an all-immersive happening that made your mind melt.

I've also listened to Iosono, with native content and that was somehow truly an eyeopener or rather an "earopener". That system is capable of creating sound that seems to emerge from within the room itself, right in front of you, etc. Unfortunately, the format is not widely supported right now and the only movie that has a compatible soundtrack is Immortals...

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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 06-14-2013 05:36 PM

Brands can hurt if handled improperly, but branding is an imperative element in marketing. Without a brand to put in front of people, how do you inform and educate them as to the benefits of the efforts put in, and to differentiate from competitors that haven't made that investment?

Unfortunately, the road to marketing hell is paved with failed branding efforts...

What Dolby did with Dolby Surround 7.1 seems ridiculous to those who know that it's just a name slapped on a generic sound format that comes with every Digital Cinema install, but it was a brand that people could reference and know exactly what they were getting. It leaned on the heritage of the Dolby name, it had the word "surround" which is the main thing people think about with movie sound, and the "7.1" moniker gave them something that was akin to or greater than what they have at home and may be familiar with.

Unfortunately, if Dolby lets theaters dilute the brand by buying the processor and nothing else, substandard installations are going to make Atmos the THX of the decade.

Maybe what Dolby could do is an equivalent to the Windows Experience Index benchmark in Windows. A single number that would rank the experience that someone can expect when watching a movie in that theater. While single numbers are much more marketable than a group of numbers, more detail could be given on the Dolby web site.

With the prevalence of the Internet these days, providing good information is more a matter of will than a matter of ability. A QR code at the door to the theater under the Dolby Atmos plaque could send people to that auditorium's Atmos page, complete with a "this theater is substandard" reporting tool so Dolby could hunt down the theaters diluting their brand.

I was concerned that Dolby was going to have a non-starting technology on their hands, but they've gotten more installs than I figured they would in their first year. They're going to have to sell many more, and make sure those installs are done right if they want a hit on their hands.

They aren't the only game in town, and Barco could eat their lunch like DTS did back in the day.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 06-14-2013 06:02 PM

quote: Scott Jentsch
Unfortunately, if Dolby lets theaters dilute the brand by buying the processor and nothing else, substandard installations are going to make Atmos the THX of the decade.

Well, Dolby isn't actually selling anything for your B Chain. A Dolby logo has never been a reliable seal of quality, that's where THX (or something similar) should've come in.

quote: Scott Jentsch
They aren't the only game in town, and Barco could eat their lunch like DTS did back in the day.

To be honest, the Barco Auro 11.1 system is rather backwards, compared to Dolby Atmos. Why you're still promoting an 11.1 discrete channel system anno 2013 is beyond me... I don't think that system is really going anywhere.w

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