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Topic: Best Sound Mix Ever

Aaron Garman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1470
From: Toledo, OH USA
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 01-09-2011 07:52 PM

I know the rumor around the campfire was that AC3 LDs were straight ports of theatrical mixes, without any sort of down mix for nearfield or smaller speakers. Also, the DTS mixes were supposedly "cooked" to have more bass, and an overall louder level. Sadly, we may never know what they did. What I do know is that the AC3 mixes on several titles beat the pants off of several DVDs I've heard: Phantom Menace, Mission: Impossible, and Jurassic Park.

Of course, there are weird ones like GoldenEye that have a seemingly bloated LFE track on the AC3 LaserDisc.

AJG

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Tom Petrov
Five Guys Lover

Posts: 1121
From: El Paso, TX
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 01-09-2011 07:59 PM

quote: Aaron Garman
I know the rumor around the campfire was that AC3 LDs were straight ports of theatrical mixes, without any sort of down mix for nearfield or smaller speakers. Also, the DTS mixes were supposedly "cooked" to have more bass, and an overall louder level. Sadly, we may never know what they did. What I do know is that the AC3 mixes on several titles beat the pants off of several DVDs I've heard: Phantom Menace, Mission: Impossible, and Jurassic Park.

Of course, there are weird ones like GoldenEye that have a seemingly bloated LFE track on the AC3 LaserDisc.

I don't think all AC-3 laserdisc mixes are straight ports, there are a few that must of been re-mastered.

Overall, I agree, it seems Dolby Digital on laserdisc sounds deeper and richer than DVDs.

Do you have The English Patient? or the movie Shine?

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Aaron Garman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1470
From: Toledo, OH USA
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 01-09-2011 08:10 PM

Yeah, older catalogue titles were surely remixed, but stuff that was "new" at the time was what most likely had theatrical mixes.

Don't have the English Patient or Shine. I saw the English Patient on VHS way back and no sound system, and for years was curious to "hear" it on a proper system, curious as to how good the Oscar winning mix was.

I may have to hop on eBay soon.

AJG

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 01-09-2011 08:33 PM

Tom, the QUOTE button is different than the REPLY button. Just thought I'd point that out. No need to quote the entire post of the person who posted right above you. Members should be banned for quoting entire posts right above them.

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Jonathan Goeldner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1360
From: Washington, District of Columbia
Registered: Jun 2008

posted 01-09-2011 09:28 PM

The Last of the Mohicans" (70mm Dolby mag)
The Others
Toy Story II (Dolby Digital EX)
Immortal Beloved (Sony 8-track mix)
Lost in Space
Alien (70mm mix)
Jurassic Park
Avatar (IMAX mix)
Close Encounters of the Third Kind

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 01-09-2011 10:31 PM

Okay...it should require more than just listing the names of the features...WHY do you think their mix was the best ever? Also, how can one list a dozen or so titles ALL with the best mix? Is the idea that they are somehow equivalently best?

I generally discount those lists that seem to be too much from one decade as those that list them clearly have not seen/heard enough movies to make a fair judge.

I'm curious Jon...what did you really like about The Last of the Mohicans?

The Immortal Beloved...which I saw in the Stag theatre in SDDS-8 also did nothing for me...but point out that the Stag mis-placed LC/RC (and I called them on it). The mix was competent but certainly not in a list of the "best."

Lost in Space? It was loud and clean but nothing too inspiring.

Jurassic Park was just plain painful and again, nothing too inspiring as compared to its contemporaries.

If you want to hear a REALLY good mix...Listen to The Sound of Music.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-09-2011 10:50 PM

I'll throw in a couple of points about The Last of the Mohicans mix.

The movie's battle sound effects, from distant gunfire to subtle knife sounds were very effective. I got a creppy "eww" vibe when Magua (Wes Studi) knifed up Uncas (Eric Schweig). The Last of the Mohicans is one of very few movies to actually take in account the speed of sound for viewers watching a battle from a far distance. In real life when you see an artillery explosion far down range you NEVER hear the explosion happen at the same time.

I liked the movie's music score (Trevor Jones & Randy Edelman), although that's a different category the way the music is mixed into the overall final mix does impact the overall sound mix.

The Last of the Mohicans also won the 1992 Best Sound Oscar. Sometimes that award seems like it's given out as a "gimmie" award for Best Picture favorites to up their Oscar counts, at least it seemed that way some years like when Platoon or Out of Africa won.

***

I know I mentioned Seven years ago in this thread, but I'd like to add I've grown to enjoy its sound mix more and more over the years for all the subtle atmospheric surround effects going on for pretty much all of the movie. I recently bought the new Blu-ray "digi-book" version of Seven. It sounds great.

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Aaron Garman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1470
From: Toledo, OH USA
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 01-09-2011 10:55 PM

Bobby, I had forgotten about Seven. It was my first DTS DVD way back when, and I remember how wonderful it sounded.

Steve, I've only ever heard Sound of Music on TV speakers...I really need to do better than that.

AJG

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 01-10-2011 01:56 AM

Yeah, the Sound of Music in its original 6-track form is a tough one to beat. It was complete mastery of sound in how it handled the music, dialog and effects. The sound absolutely complimented the picture and was definitely superior to its contemporaries and to most tracks of today. It does not have the thunderous bass of today's mixes due to its era, however.

I also generally like the mixes by Larry Blake (e.g. Oceans 11). He doesn't emasculate the dialog and always seems to do a good job of the atmospherics. And while SDDS was alive and well...he mostly did 8-channel mixes.

-Steve

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-10-2011 10:36 AM

I watched a 70mm screening of The Sound of Music at the Gotham theater on 3rd Avenue in Manhattan back in 1990. I watched the movie more for the native Todd-AO 65mm photography than the sound, but the sound was pretty good. I don't remember much activity in the surrounds, but the front stage had a nice big sound to it.

I don't know if the 70mm prints in the 25th anniversary release had the classic 5 up front channel arrangement. The ads didn't say anything about Dolby noise reduction. It was just 70mm and "6-track sound."

Funny thing, the Gotham theater still shows up on Internet listings like Bing Maps even though it was apparently torn down several years ago. I remember seeing Big there. The theater was a couple or so blocks south of the Baronet/Coronet theater and Cinema 123. All of those places showed quite a bit of 70mm. However, I usually only visited those 3rd Ave. venues if the Ziegfeld or Astor Plaza didn't have the same show in 70mm. Manhattan had a lot of theaters capable of 70mm back in the 1980s and early 1990s.

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Jonathan Goeldner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1360
From: Washington, District of Columbia
Registered: Jun 2008

posted 01-11-2011 09:07 PM

quote: Steve Guttag
Okay...it should require more than just listing the names of the features...WHY do you think their mix was the best ever? Also, how can one list a dozen or so titles ALL with the best mix? Is the idea that they are somehow equivalently best?

I generally discount those lists that seem to be too much from one decade as those that list them clearly have not seen/heard enough movies to make a fair judge.

I'm curious Jon...what did you really like about The Last of the Mohicans?

The Immortal Beloved...which I saw in the Stag theatre in SDDS-8 also did nothing for me...but point out that the Stag mis-placed LC/RC (and I called them on it). The mix was competent but certainly not in a list of the "best."

Lost in Space? It was loud and clean but nothing too inspiring.

Jurassic Park was just plain painful and again, nothing too inspiring as compared to its contemporaries.

If you want to hear a REALLY good mix...Listen to The Sound of Music.

well Steve: 'best' in my opinion is just that, 'mine', not yours. The maybe not be the best, but they are certainly some of the most impressive soundmixes that I can recall off the top of my head.

I liked 'Last of the Mohicans' because the dynamics of the soundmix demonstrated how a walk through the woods can sound so subtle and quiet. And then when the movie changes to the attack on the Fort - it's highly aggressive. The canons as heard on the Uptown theatre's soundsystem were both powerful and jarring. I thought all in all, the sound AND the music were beautifully integrated.

okay, sure 'Amadeus' soudmix was probably better than 'Immortal Beloved' but I thought the classical music moments had tremendouse presence, and unlike your experience with the film, the 8-channel mix did NOT have problems - so I have one leg up over YOUR opinion in that respect.

Lost in Space - while I didn't note this, was also the 8-channel SDDS mix, and I thought for a scifi movie the soundmix had it's loud moments AND it's soft moments - notably the flying through the sun part - the action freezes, the audio falls silent... than BAM!! the spaceship rips through the fold in space, the sound effect was assaultive and very very impressive.

for Jurassic Park - I thought Spielberg and his soundmixers used sound to really heighten the intensity and action, unlike some of the more recent movies the movie doesn't need to be a barrage of noise and be completely obnoxious (i.e, Michael Bay films) from the T-rex growls and screams, to the dinosaur breathing on the glass window - the mix was just like the movie itself, a rollercoaster ride.

Sound of Music on bluray?, DVD?, 35mm?, 70mm? ... which? I've only seen the movie on TV, DVD and bluray - the bluray does a decent job in recreating the LC/RC channels of sound from the 65mm prints by simulating vocal positioning between the left and center speaker/right speakers

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-11-2011 10:23 PM

On The Sound of Music, I think Steve is talking about the audio mix as heard in a 70mm presentation that preserves the original Todd-AO mix with 5 stage channels.

I enjoyed watching Jurassic Park in DTS as it was presented at GCC Northpark #1 in Dallas. I watched Jurassic Park several times during the summer of 1993. I watched it at least 3 or 4 times at GCC Northpark. I also saw it at a couple of other theaters. One in Lewisville, TX had it in DTS, but it didn't sound nearly as good as it did at Northpark #1. I also watched it with some friends at a theater no longer in existence here in Lawton; the audio was stereo optical. Jurassic Park just sucks ass without 5.1 digital sound.

The sound mix in Jurassic Park is really good and works as a kind of character in the show, but the movie theater has to be playing the movie in DTS and have a sound system that really delivers the goods.

The Northpark theater's sound system was highly capable and very well maintained -two traits the vast majority of commercial theaters lack IMHO. You know the sound system is a winner when the sub bass can thump the air inside your chest while keeping the overall audio range clean, tight and balanced. That's a pretty impressive feat for a 1000+ seat theater. So when the T-Rex attack scene began the audio mix really heightened the tension in the scene.

Also, there was a kind of novelty in the dynamics of 5.1 digital sound at the time. Jurassic Park made use of going from dead quiet to scare the hell out of you loud. I still love that scene change cut from the raptor nursery to the feeding pen outdoors. That raptor scream is supposed to give the audience one hell of a jolt. If it doesn't the theater's sound system isn't properly set, properly equipped or both.

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Aaron Garman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1470
From: Toledo, OH USA
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 01-11-2011 10:26 PM

quote: Steve Guttag
I also generally like the mixes by Larry Blake (e.g. Oceans 11). He doesn't emasculate the dialog and always seems to do a good job of the atmospherics.

I always loved using Ocean's 11 to test my center channel speaker's performance: voices sound so good in that film. It's a movie with great sound, but nothing noticeable or distracting. In that respect, well played.

I have to completely disagree with you on Jurassic Park: it rocks the house! But even quiet scenes are well mixed, like scenes in the control room with good dialogue, the sounds of all the other machines, and chairs moving around. The music comes across beautifully, and never over powering when it shouldn't be like during the scene with Hammond and Ellie eating ice cream. Everyone points out the T-Rex sequence as the most fun, and while it is, I like the gallimimus one better: fun use of the surrounds, nice bass passages, and grisly details as the rex munches on some dead dino. One of Gary Rydstrom's best works.

Speaking of Rydstrom, even though Episode II was not a great film, the sound mix him and Ben Burtt created was possibly the best of any Star Wars film: bombastic at all the right moments, but still subtle when the time was right. The effect of the charges in the asteroid field was AMAZING to hear on a good sound system. I've never been able to re-create what I heard theatrically with the DVD track.

AJG

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 01-11-2011 10:59 PM

Yes...for the Sound of Music...definitely the 70mm 6-track mix (we showed it in 70mm at the Uptown Jon...where were you?!?!? I looked [Wink]

)

Jurassic Park is probably the ONLY film that I had to walk out of the theatre on a Studio run-through due to it just sounding bad (painful)...and yes it was at the Uptown for Universal. It was tuned as per Universal too. If that is how it was suppose to sound...it was just didn't do it for me.

I have no problem that people like movies or soundtracks that I don't...that isn't the issue...but when one rambles off a list of titles as being the best...I'm curious as to WHY they think they are the best...it is the only way a thread like this can have meaning. It is a given that these lists are going to be based on the opinion of the person posting.

My favorite Star Wars mix was probably Empire...but I have an affection for that film as the best in the series so the sound may be coming part in parcel.

I really liked the Raiders of the Lost Ark mix too of that era.

Despite only hearing it in Dolby Stereo...Rumble Fish really did a nice job of setting the mood. When Rusty James gets hit in the alley still hurts every time I hear it.

As far as Atmospheric sounds...2001 still reigns king for me. They at least had the balls to have no sound in space. There is a lot of inspiration on the sound of 2001. Heck, despite none of the music being written for the film, that music will forever be associated with that film...pretty powerful stuff.

-Steve

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-11-2011 11:56 PM

Steve, do you know if the 1990 re-release 70mm prints of The Sound of Music had the classic Todd-AO five-up-front channel arrangement? I thought it sounded like that at the Gotham theater but am not entirely sure.

Regarding JP, I remember reading complaints about the movie sounding painful and shrill at certain theaters. There was a write-up in Widescreen Review about it in relation to Dolby Digital, DTS and SDDS making their way into movie theaters. The movie was plenty loud at Northpark, but I didn't consider it harsh or shrill. The loudness was more in the mid-range and really there in the bottom end of the spectrum.

I'm pretty sure my most painful experience of movie volume was on a pre-screening of Goldeneye. Damn that movie was loud! People were running for the volume knob during the opening action sequence (the instance of a metal door exploding off the wall did the trick). The fader on the Dolby CP65 had to be cut back to just under 6 to make things tolerable.

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