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Topic: Crocodile Hunter Steve Irwin Dies
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Jeremy Fuentes
Mmmm, Dr. Pepper!
Posts: 1168
From: Corpus Christi, TX United States
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 09-09-2006 11:43 PM
quote: Michael Schaffer
It is about honesty. If something happened to me or a family member or a friend or a friend's dog, you wouldn't give a shit just like you don't give a shit about all the many deaths that you see or hear about on the news every day.
Honestly, if you dont think that I would give a shit if something happened to you or your family or whatever, then maybe you're right. Maybe I'm not mature enough to care about that. Maybe my attitude here on F-T has caused me to come across as an incompassionate asshole who changes the channel when I see buildings falling down, or hurricane damaged cities, or soldiers dying on a daily basis. Maybe I dont do anything to help these people. Maybe I'm happy when I see things like that. Maybe I see people asking for donations to help Katrina victims, and I say, "no thanks. I dont care." Maybe I saw the blood drives after 9/11 and said, "damn, I wish I cared enough to give my blood, but, its my blood, so get away from me." Maybe when my friends brother died in Iraq recently, I declined to try and make her feel better or cheer her up a few days later. Maybe I told her, "I didnt know him personally so why should I care?" "Death is part of life, deal with it" Maybe I did all this. What do you think? Since you know me so well, and you know what I get and dont get, and when I change the channel. I'm sure my posts in the past here have made me sound immature, but do I care? If I did, dont you think I wouldnt have posted them? Dont you think I would have tried to make myself sound like someone who cares what you think about my level of maturity? I've made some really stupid comments and posts in the past, enough for you to call me immature and enough for you to question my intelligence. But I've never been disrespectful when it comes to issues such as this. What I have done thats been disrespectful is take part in the argument going on in this thread rather than just showing my respect and moving on. That was a mistake on my part, and I'm willing to admit that. I'm so immature sometimes. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays
Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999
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posted 09-10-2006 03:07 AM
Jeepers, this thread has really gone south since I left for work this week.
To the notion that we're feeling remorse for someone we did not personally know... for me, it is the same reason that good movies work; we become involved on an emotional level. Think of the range of intense feelings you can experience just watching a movie. Sometimes, depending on the picture and your constitution, we can be moved to the point of actually crying.
How many of us cried when Bambi's mother was killed? Or during the funeral scene in "My Girl", where Anna is so distraught by her best friend’s death by bee stings? Heck, I got choked up in "Slingblade", when Carl, knowing what he had to do to save the family he had befriended, told the young boy Frank that he loved him. And folks, these are not only people we don't know... but people who DON'T EVEN EXIST! Our sadness is manifest simply because we feel that we know them, or can relate to them, or appreciate them. Our minds make an emotional connection to that person or situation.
They have touched our lives by proxy.
Admittedly, I have become 'Mr. Emotional' since losing my daughter in December, or maybe middle age has a hand in it, but I find myself with a deeper appreciation for all things; people, situations, relationships, love... than I ever have before.
Dave Williams said it best: quote: Dave Williams
It is... a fitting tribute for humanity in general that people such as we, getting together on such a place as here, and talking about things as trivial as people that we did not know, and how they made us feel good about living...
<snip>Every death has a special meaning and purpose for our history, however we cannot just spend our entire lives trying to figure out all of them...
<snip>It only says that we are capable of feeling normal human reactions and emotions. I think that's a good sign, not a bad one.
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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"
Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 09-10-2006 04:12 AM
Jeremy - you still don't get it. You can think and feel about whatever however you want, and you can share your views freely, just like everyone else. Just respect there may be people who see and feel things in a different way. People are not automatically asses or mean and cold-blooded because they have other emotional reactions and priorities than you do, or because they think it is not genuine to cry about some celebrity we didn't really know at all while ignoring a lot of other strangers' deaths.
We only have a very limited capacity for compassion and to process all the suffering and tragedy that we hear about all the time. Some people like to pretend to feel deeply about all that, but that is simply not true (I mean people in general, all of us, not just you specifically). But we can't process all that and so we are highly selective in how we distribute our compassion. I don't think there is anything mean or cold-blooded about simply admitting that fact and not caring for somebody who played absolutely no part in our life. You may still feel very deeply about that particular case, for whatever reasons, but please understand and respect not everyone else has to.
I personally have very little sympathy for people who put themselves stupidly in harms' way - which is their priviledge.
That's why we have the Darwin Awards.
But I would rather reserve some of my compassion for people who get wiped out without having contributed anything at all to their demise.
quote:
To the notion that we're feeling remorse for someone we did not personally know... for me, it is the same reason that good movies work; we become involved on an emotional level. Think of the range of intense feelings you can experience just watching a movie. Sometimes, depending on the picture and your constitution, we can be moved to the point of actually crying.
How many of us cried when Bambi's mother was killed? Or during the funeral scene in "My Girl", where Anna is so distraught by her best friend’s death by bee stings? Heck, I got choked up in "Slingblade", when Carl, knowing what he had to do to save the family he had befriended, told the young boy Frank that he loved him. And folks, these are not only people we don't know... but people who DON'T EVEN EXIST! Our sadness is manifest simply because we feel that we know them, or can relate to them, or appreciate them. Our minds make an emotional connection to that person or situation.
That is all very true, but if you think about it, we don't really cry for these characters and their fate. We cry about what they trigger in us. They serve as projection surfaces for our emotional needs. But we don't really care about them. We care about what we project on them. Why do we do that to us and even seem to enjoy it to a certain degree? Because it has a cathartic effect, it helps to train our soul. But it's all just for and about ourselves.
That's why it is a good thing to have art and entertainment and obviously, since we are emotionally very complex animals, we have a very deep need for our souls to be stimulated and trained.
Such forms of entertainment - and remember, it is entertainment, even though it may not always be light-hearted or funny, but also sad and tragic - are good for us because we can carefully dose these emotions.
But they just serve a purpose for us. That is not real compassion.
As someone whose family has been struck hard by real tragedy recently, you will probably agree that the real pain of real loss is infinitely sharper than that and you can't even begin to compare the emotional turmoil such a loss causes to the lightly dosed compassion caused by observing real or staged tragedies from a "safe distance". That is precisely the reason why I feel it is not really honest when people protest to be deeply touched by what happens to people they don't even know. I think it it is actually disrespectful to those people who really feel the loss immediately. It gives me a feeling as if people want to have a piece of the pain - but just a small piece - so they can feel better about themselves. But that doesn't help the victims of tragedy at all.
What does help is *doing* something for the people that actually reaches them in some way, and be it just something as indirect as exchanging supporting messages through a forum like this one here like you and many posters did in your case. I hope that helped you.
But that is actually getting involved with the people who were hit by fate, even if only remotely, and doing something to help a little bit, and it is miles away from just making speeches about distant celebrities and how deeply we feel about what happened to them.
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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug
Posts: 7595
From: Hollywood, CA USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 09-10-2006 04:17 AM
Tim,
I don't agree with you in all what you posted. I do not think there is any comparison between fictional films and real life that makes one "feel" compassion or sorry for the "person"/character in a film.
I think the reason MOST people feel emotions (sadness, laughter, compassion, understanding, etc.) for the "people" in a film is because of an excellent director and/or the actor's performance that has ***manipulated*** us all to make us "feel" empathy for the characters. That is truly the mark of a professional film maker!
The one film that sticks in my mind that points this out for me and in which I got choked up over (and still do) is the 1959 version of "Imitation of Life" when the (black - passing for white) daughter is crying and regretting her past treatment of her mom over the years, and pounding on the casket of her mom. THAT was, and still is, very vivid in my mind's eye and STILL chokes me up when I watch it.
Like several of my favorite films, I always watch that film when it's on DirecTV even though I've probably seen it dozens of times.
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Pravin Ratnam
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 844
From: Atlanta, GA,USA
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 09-10-2006 05:30 AM
Michael, if you read the entirety of my posts, I clearly say why some may mourn for his death other than pure "he is a celeb" factor. There are entertainers out there. Educators, activists. But how many serve more than one role effectively. As a celeb, he actually registered lower to me on a scale much lower than Ben Roethlisberger or Kurt Cobain. So if I don't get depresssed by my favorite celebs dying or rumored to be dying, I doubt the celeb factor drives me to feel bad for Irwin. I just him knew him as that crazy guy who chased crocodiles. All I know is whenever I saw a clip of him and his family and his antics, it made me happy and I wished to see more as the years went by. And once I lookd at his background very briefly, it gave me all I needed to know he seemed genuine enough. I just didn't know his name that well. Plus what many identified was his zest for life. What many seemed to identify with Diana was her get rich by marrying a prince thing and oh poor lady, what an ugly prince had the audacity to do to her factor. That's why i find it silly. Still I am not going to rub it in their presence.
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Jason Black
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1723
From: Myrtle Beach, SC, USA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 09-10-2006 08:57 AM
quote: Michael Schaffer
Jeremy - you are apparently a good natured and well meaning, but not very intelligent fellow. Or not very mature. Or both. I explained this over and over, and you still don't get it. It is not about being tough or not tough or silly or not silly or pretending or not pretending to feel ot not to feel anything.
It is about honesty. If something happened to me or a family member or a friend or a friend's dog, you wouldn't give a shit just like you don't give a shit about all the many deaths that you see or hear about on the news every day. You just change the channel. There is nothing you can do to help them anyway.
Micheal:
I think the point that both Jeremy and Chris were making is that death DOES have an effect on people. For example, if I heard, via the forum that you suddenly dropped dead, I would feel bad for your family and friends... and, for the most part, I don't even like you based on many of your posts on FT. That, however, is somwhat irrelevant.
The fact remains that death, when coupled with a personal knowledge of the decedant, does invoke an effect on most people. Seeing that some fella got shot in Houston, or anywhere else for that fact, that I did not know, or know of, has no real effect on me, although at times, I do wonder about the family of the decedant.
I think that you guys who are claiming to care less when someone dies are being overly callous and/or dramatic, but we've seen that in your other posts anyway...
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Anslem Rayburn
Master Film Handler
Posts: 476
From: Yuma, AZ, USA
Registered: May 2002
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posted 09-10-2006 09:00 AM
quote: Michael Schaffer
Jeremy - you still don't get it. You can think and feel about whatever however you want, and you can share your views freely, just like everyone else. Just respect there may be people who see and feel things in a different way.
Thank you for re-stating MY point. RESPECT that some of us think differently than you. Then leave it alone. If you want to discuss the psycholigcal aspects of celebrity worship, start a thread on it. Don't drag into a thread of you peers remembering a person that died.
quote: Michael Schaffer
I think it it is actually disrespectful to those people who really feel the loss immediately.
Ask Terri Irwin if she feels disrespected by the outpouring of emotion that has reached her since her husbands death. If she says yes, then I will concede this point. If not...
quote: Michael Schaffer
What was your connection with Mr Irwin, BTW? What was he really like as a person, since you apparently knew him?
He was in my living room via television on a regular basis. He was as real to me as you are. And I would be sad if something happened to you, as nobody deserves to be harmed or die. Call me a liar if you wish, but people dying affects me. This death would mean more to more people, due to his media exposure, than a clerk being shot in a robbery, and that's why it's posted on a message board frequented by a diverse group of people. I am now done with this thread and discussing it with you. I leave with a simple message :
Thank you Steve Irwin, and may your wife and children lead a happy and safe life doing whatever it is they love. You are missed, and you will always be remembered.
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Chad Souder
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 962
From: Waterloo, IA, USA
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 09-10-2006 10:28 AM
I would be sad if you died, Michael, but only because there would not be any more of your posts for me to read. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Face it, people, no one outside of the members of this forum care about what is being written here. This is not a "diverse group of people" as Anslem stated. This is a relatively small group of people that have ties in one way or another to the motion picture industry. There are a bajillion different message forums so you can flush the idea that what gets written here is going to reach anyone who is actually close to the issue of Steve Irwin and leave them offended or upset. We all do the Yak forum in our free time because maybe we find joy in discussion or debate or maybe we like the idea of others reading our ideas or maybe we're just bored. It amazes me that some take the time to submit a request to "just move on" without just ignoring the matter and moving on themselves. It also amazes me that some have this thought that only members in agreement are allowed to join in a discussion and any dissenting opinions are not only rude and disrespectful, but forbidden. How boring would these threads be if there were no contrast! Debate is how we grow and if you do not like what is being said, either formulate an educated response to defend your position or shut up and ignore the discussion completely. I feel no ill will toward any of you that have offered a meaningful contribution to this discussion. For those of you that choose to dish out personal attacks, I think that just means you can't think of anything smart to defend your position. The name calling is juvenile and unnecessary. If I have written anything here that was taken as a personaly attack, I apologize. That was not my intent.
Lastly...
quote: Anslem Rayburn
nobody deserves to be harmed or die.
Yes, some people do.
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Jeremy Fuentes
Mmmm, Dr. Pepper!
Posts: 1168
From: Corpus Christi, TX United States
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 09-10-2006 12:34 PM
One last point before I stop bumping this thread to the top for the point of arguing. Michael, I get that people react different. But you ignored my whole post and what I was repyling to. You stated that I wouldnt give a shit, and I stated that I would. Then you went and restated your point that I didnt even touch on in my most recent reply. My reply had nothing to do with how other people react. It was in reference to me not giving a shit. You dont know me, outside of here, right? I assume that if I were to die in an accident changing a bulb due to negligence on my part, I think its safe to say that you wouldnt give a shit, and you'd me man enough to say it on the forum right? But if you were to die from say, alcohol poisoning or drinking and driving, at the next Film Tech drink, would I care? I would state it publicly that I did care, even though you knew what you were doing by drinking. But like you said, I'm entitled to show compassion for a person that I only know from a few words and a still picture, and youre entitled not to.
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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"
Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 09-10-2006 03:11 PM
quote:
I think the reason MOST people feel emotions (sadness, laughter, compassion, understanding, etc.) for the "people" in a film is because of an excellent director and/or the actor's performance that has ***manipulated*** us all to make us "feel" empathy for the characters. That is truly the mark of a professional film maker!
Very good point. And, like I said, we allow them to manipulate us because it actually does us some good to "exercise" our souls in a safe way.
quote: Pravin Ratnam
What many seemed to identify with Diana was her get rich by marrying a prince thing and oh poor lady, what an ugly prince had the audacity to do to her factor. That's why i find it silly. Still I am not going to rub it in their presence.
I get that. I personally find it silly, too, but I don't really care what they do with their emotional households. But again, we are not talking about real compassion for a real person, we are talking about manipulated emotions triggered by iconic images that such celebrities embody for some people.
quote: Jason Black
Seeing that some fella got shot in Houston, or anywhere else for that fact, that I did not know, or know of, has no real effect on me, although at times, I do wonder about the family of the decedant.
Same here. That was my point all along. I bet everybody really feels more or less the same way. And if you think about it, what does that tell us about ourselves? Is this person's death any less tragic than that of a celebrity? Do we know him any better or less than the celebrity as a person? Do we actually know the celebrity as a person? Or maybe only as an image? What are we bemourning then? The person or the image? Is that why we care less for the anonymous death? Because we don't have an image of him as a person or at least as an icon? Probably. But if you think about it, that tells us a lot about how selective and egotistic our "compassion" really is.
quote: Jason Black
I think that you guys who are claiming to care less when someone dies
Nobody said anything remotely like that. Some of us just said compassion for somebody we only know as a media-manipulated persona may not be entirely real.
quote: Anslem Rayburn
Thank you for re-stating MY point. RESPECT that some of us think differently than you. Then leave it alone.
Oh, *that* was your point? Why don't you live up to your own ideal then and respect it when people just feel differently and point out that emotions for a remote icon are maybe not completely genuine?
Why this enormous outcry? Because it isn't about Irwin and what happened to him at all. It is all about the use some of you guys want to make of his death for your own emotional households. For you, his persona and his death just serve a purpose for you, like a character in a movie.
quote: Jeremy Fuentes
But like you said, I'm entitled to show compassion for a person that I only know from a few words and a still picture, and youre entitled not to.
Oh good - you finally get it. I think you learned something here. Go ahead and feel like and say what you want, and let other people feel and say whatever they want. There is no reason to start namecalling because people don't agree with your views. You seem to be somewhat fixated on "being a man" for stating views on internet forums. So, what kind of "man" are you? You mentioned compassion for victims of Katrina, 9/11, soldiers dying abroad. What are you actually *doing* to help all these people and their families and live up to your words? Or do you just watch the misery, feel a little bad for a split second, then you change the channel? How does that help? Is there anything you do except profess publically "like a man" to care? Or do you really care and act?
Those are rhetoric questions. I know you didn't do anything to help. But it does feel reeeeaaaallly great to be so righteous, doesn't it? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Anyway, I think we are all repeating ourselves. Uncle Phil said it best on the preceding page. We exchanged a lot of provocative but interesting points - what a good discussion should be about.
Let's all hug and cuddle and feel and care deeply for each other again. ![[sex]](graemlins/sex.gif) ![[beer]](graemlins/beer.gif)
At this point, we are really
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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays
Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999
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posted 09-10-2006 04:11 PM
quote: Michael Schaffer
you will probably agree that the real pain of real loss is infinitely sharper than that and you can't even begin to compare the emotional turmoil such a loss causes to the lightly dosed compassion caused by observing real or staged tragedies from a "safe distance". That is precisely the reason why I feel it is not really honest when people protest to be deeply touched by what happens to people they don't even know.
You're absolutely right, Michael. It is not the same, but it is just as real. It's simply on a different scale. We are compelled to "say a few words", as it were, over the loss of our TV friend. As you note, we humans are emotionally complex, and our souls require some form of reconciliation with itself.
You're very astute. I understand your point.
I have met precious few people from this forum face to face, yet I feel very close to most of them. I would even go as far to say that I love several of these members like family. Yet, all I know are their pictures and written words... but, to me, the relationships and emotions I feel for them are very real.
I realize there is a further distinction in that our FT relationships are interactive...
quote: Phil Hill
the reason MOST people feel emotions (sadness, laughter, compassion, understanding, etc.) for the "people" in a film is because of an excellent director and/or the actor's performance that has ***manipulated*** us all to make us "feel" empathy for the characters. That is truly the mark of a professional film maker!
Oh, I am with you 100%, Phil. That's why I said "good" movies. We become involved on an emotional level and it cuts straight to our very being. What you said was what I meant to say, but I don't think it came out that way.
quote: Cameron Glendinning
PS Tim I am very sorry to hear about your daughter.
Thank you, Cameron. That's very kind.
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