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Topic: Carmike installing 2300 Christie/AIX DLP systems

Michael Coate
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1904
From: Los Angeles, California
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 07-06-2006 11:43 PM

quote: Paul Linfesty
Gee, Michael, are you saying you're the only one who should be allowed to ever post listings of where a digital print may be playing?

No, Paul, I'm not claiming that I'm the only one who should be allowed to post details pertaining to digital screenings. Do you really not understand the issue here, or are you just posting to be an ass?

quote: Paul Linfesty
As far as I can tell, Bobby and others have done their own research and have not been copying from your list. So what is the problem exactly?

You're missing the point! I haven't accused anyone of copying from my list. In this instance, I'm actually encouraging people to use the information since, as I've already indicated, I've already done the research and have made the work readily available.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-07-2006 01:14 AM

The difference is you're mainly keeping track of where a certain movie is playing in D-Cinema. There's nothing wrong with that.

With regard to the subject of this thread, I'm a bit more interested in the progress of Christie|AIX D-Cinema installs at Carmike locations. Some of that is out of selfish interest since the Carmike location here in Lawton happens to be their best movie theater in this particular district.

It's kind of difficult to get any accurate "inside" news regarding Carmike on this forum because whenever the circuit is mentioned the "Carmike Sucks" joy party sometimes tends to rain on the thread. I know some folks who have worked for Carmike for a long time. They love movies and care about showing them well. And they would participate in this forum, but they are really turned off by all the "Carmike Sucks" stuff that crops up. They would rather just stay away than get caught up in a stupid flame fest.

Honestly, I don't see any other circuits bad-mouthed quite as badly and I don't think it's fair. I defy anyone to show me any major movie theater circuit with more than 1000 screens that doesn't have a few dogs and complete embarrassments in their list of locations.

Carmike mainly operates in smaller population markets. So I think it's pretty remarkable that such a circuit will take such an aggressive leadership role on promoting D-Cinema. I don't really agree with the move because I still believe film is better. But I think they deserve some credit for having the balls to make a declarative move. And I guess I'll get to see how this new 2K Christie DLP stuff looks pretty soon.

Oklahoma, as far as I can tell, currently has no D-Cinema equipped movie theaters. Carmike's theater here in Lawton may end up being the first in the state with such equipment. That would be cool to hold over the heads of folks in my region who think you gotta be in Oklahoma City or Tulsa to find anything new, good or progressive.

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Michael Coate
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1904
From: Los Angeles, California
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 07-07-2006 04:34 PM

quote: Bobby Henderson
The difference is you're mainly keeping track of where a certain movie is playing in D-Cinema.

In the process of compiling the playdate listings I'm simultaneously maintaining my own database of locations.

My earlier point, which seems to be misunderstood, was that recent releases such as "M:i:III," "Cars" and "Superman Returns" were wide releases (for D-Cinema), and had you taken a peek at their playdate lists you would've no doubt spotted many of the new locations. Links to those lists were posted in at least seven different film-tech threads, two of which even included a comment such as "lots of new installs in places like Oregon, Utah, Minnesota, etc."

None of this would be an issue if some of the folks involved weren't "regulars" here. Many of you, Bobby in particular, visit this site daily and have posted in some of the threads in question, so I have a difficult time believing you are unaware of my postings on this topic or lack any familiarity with my website, the function of which is to serve as an information resource. Ignoring this stuff comes off as a blatant snub.

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 07-07-2006 04:54 PM

quote: Michael Coate
Ignoring this stuff comes off as a blatant snub.

Perhaps you earn part of your living researching and tracking DLP installations and releases. That would make your intense interest in the issue somewhat understandable. But for most us, or at least myself, that's "information", not "knowledge". The fact that the Carmike in Corvallis now has DLP installed is just another piece of information, one which I wouldn't necessarily seek out, since I never make the trip to Corvallis. I'm aware of it now because it's been called to my attention.

I don't regularly visit any film or video forums except Film-Tech. I don't have time. I chose this forum because it does the best job of providing me with both information and knowledge that's of interest to me.

However:

Do I read every post in general? No.

Do I read every post by Michael Coate? No.

Do I read every emailed newsletter from Michael Coate? No (I do look at them if I have time though).

Do I regularly visit his web site? No.

Of the posts (or emails) I do read, do I retain all the information and/or knowledge they may contain? Hell No.

In Perfect World, everyone would refer to Michael Coate's site for the latest and undoubtedly the most accurate info on DLP installations and releases. In the Real World, maybe we remember to do that. Or maybe we don't. [Shrug]

Certainly if we don't, no offense is intended nor should it be taken.

I also agree with Bobby that Carmike's plunge into D-Cinema is a bold move and I give them credit for moving swiftly. Whether they're making the RIGHT move remains to be seen. I have a feeling they are. But I still haven't seen DLP myself, so my opinion is probably worthless.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-07-2006 06:49 PM

quote: Michael Coate
Many of you, Bobby in particular, visit this site daily and have posted in some of the threads in question, so I have a difficult time believing you are unaware of my postings on this topic or lack any familiarity with my website, the function of which is to serve as an information resource. Ignoring this stuff comes off as a blatant snub.

Mike, when talk like you are the moderator of this forum (which you ARE NOT at all) and come off like you are the only one who has any right to post any thoughts or comments on this stuff, it makes me purposefully not want to ever visit your damned website!

Honestly, why should any of us be required to visit your website? Who made you God all of a sudden? And really who gives a fuck if some little tidbit of "news" happens to get repeated?

Get a grip and get over yourself.

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Carl Martin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1424
From: Oakland, CA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 07-08-2006 05:24 AM

quote: John Walsh
Don't forget, though, there's a lot of people out there making annoying, misleading and often false comments about film, too.

I don't think anyone here actively dislikes digital, I just think most people want the system that replaces film to be at least as good, in terms of picture quality.

what i actively dislike is the notion of digital video replacing film. i don't think they are or should be interchangeable. i sure hope there is some future for works shot, (edited,) and shown on film, and continue to be venues to see old films (on film).

many of us are nostalgic for things like 70mm and ib technicolor. at least prints in these formats/processes are still out there and can be shown in existing venues. how long will that be the case? and the difference between film and video is, to my thinking, far greater than the difference between 2 gauges of film, or the method by which the analog image is affixed to it.

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Michael Gonzalez
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 790
From: Grand Island , NE USA
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 07-08-2006 08:38 PM

Well I just reached the first stage as we had someone out to look at our booth to check on our power needs. We will have an electrician out in the next week or so to boost things upstairs. Looks like we are getting that install sooner rather than later.

The facts are that if properly presented, film is far superior to Digital (even 4K). However in the real world facts do not always seem to matter. The public perception is that Digital is better. I have talked to several of my customers and many of them have driven out of their way to check out D-Cinema at other locations and ALL of them have liked what they saw. Like it or not D-Cinema is better than film because our customers (and potential customers) believe that it is. Naturally since my location is on the verge of a full conversion, I have been giving this a lot more thought than I have in the past. I believe now that even if it is just for the marketing value, the smart money is going to Digital for any new screens. The public wants it and we have to give the publlic what they want if we want to stay in business.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-08-2006 10:08 PM

I think the buzzword "digital" influences the customers' view on the actual product quality.

Remember in the early days of DTS how Universal Pictures was attaching DTS "The Digital Experience" sound format snipes on all Universal release prints? The theaters not equipped with DTS were supposed to remove those trailers. Many of them didn't do so. There were jokes how some customers, after hearing the movie in regular Dolby optical or even mono, came out of the theater talking about how the movie sounded better.
[Roll Eyes]

I don't think I really agree the customers are demanding D-Cinema. Most are simply indifferent about most technical stuff involving movies. There's lots of people out there who don't realize most theaters still show movies from 35mm film prints. A high percentage thinks they're seeing projection from some kind of video player that can simply be rewound if a technical issue like a brain wrap occurs.

It's clear the people demanding digital projection are the distributors. They do spend a pretty significant amount of money of film prints. If the distributors foot the entire bill for conversion to video projection an average projector on a first run screen will pay for itself in about 4-5 years. That's based on the cost of the distributor not having to make prints for that theater.

I'm not going to expect better image quality when the Carmike location in my town changes to digital projection. If anything, I'm hoping this move to digital will bring the lower quality theaters up a few notches and make a certain standard of presentation quality a lot more consistent.

But then again, that all depends on how these systems are maintained. If maintenance is left entirely up to the theaters then we're still going to see a lot of the same old problems -just in "digital" form.

Digital projection does indeed have one clear advantage: flexibility. I'm hoping the combination of satellite downloads and mass storage will allow the average 8-plex to show more than just 8 regular Hollywood produced "McMovies". I'm hoping for a greater variety of titles, particularly independent films. If one major release winds up sucking ass through the weekend, maybe it can be replaced with one or more indie flicks or even something else, like a HD-taped concert.

That flexibility is really where the money is to be made off this video-based animal. There's no prints to build up or tear down. I don't know how much space the average DCI-compliant "digital print" takes up on a server -or the maximum capacity of these servers. How many movies can the standard Christie/AIX system store on site?

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Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002

posted 07-08-2006 10:46 PM

quote: Bobby Henderson
I don't think I really agree the customers are demanding D-Cinema.

On one hand, the stupid comments we've all heard or read about here ("can you wind the tape back?") from customers would seem to indicate that most customers wouldn't know what D-Cinema is.

But on the other, I've had occasion to view the same film in the same theater in both 35mm and Digital and there's always more people in the digital presentations. When the last Star Wars film was released, there were always long lines in front of the screens playing the digital presentation and shorter or no lines in front of the 35mm presentations.

So while the customers may not truly understand what D-Cinema means and while they won't understand all the subtleties or the fact that there are 1K, 2K and soon supposedly 4K projectors and they probably also don't understand the difference between the preshow projector and the feature projector, there are consumers who seem to be making decisions based on the fact that it's a digital presentation and based on that, I think one could make the case that at least some customers are "demanding" D-Cinema.

IMO, D-Cinema would have the greatest benefit in smaller cities where the theaters don't get virgin prints. Assuming the projectionists aren't complete idiots, 35mm is almost always going to look better during the first few days of a run. But after playing for a week or two and then having the print cut down and rebuilt in another theater, a proper d-cinema presentation will probably be superior in almost every case. Of course, those are the locations who can least afford the new technology.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-09-2006 12:15 AM

quote: Martin Brooks
I've had occasion to view the same film in the same theater in both 35mm and Digital and there's always more people in the digital presentations. When the last Star Wars film was released, there were always long lines in front of the screens playing the digital presentation and shorter or no lines in front of the 35mm presentations.

Again, that's largely based on all the "digital cinema" hype. In the case of the Star Wars prequels there was a lot of emphasis put into the ads for theaters showing the movie in various forms of digital projection. The emphasis in those newspaper stack ads was similar to the model used to promote 70mm engagements in the 1980s. The public sees that in the listings and assumes that just has to be the better place to see it. Their preference isn't based on knowing all the real positive and negative aspects between film and video.

I believe the Carmike theater in my town already has excellent image quality with its film projectors. I'm not sure how a switch to video will improve things. I hope it isn't a step backward. One thing I am definitely looking forward to with the switch is improved sound quality. DTS is already really good. But it's still lossy compressed surround sound. The D-Cinema systems boast 20-bit 5.1 channel uncompressed Linear PCM.

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Shane Cooper
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 232
From: Little Rock, Arkansas
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 07-09-2006 12:19 AM

quote: Martin Brooks
But on the other, I've had occasion to view the same film in the same theater in both 35mm and Digital and there's always more people in the digital presentations.

I have had 6 of the Christie projectors for two weekends, and the demand for DLP is there. We had a lot of questions about what digital is etc., but even in week two customers are asking for it and waiting for digital screenings.

I agree with Gonzalez, it doesn't matter if digital is superior to film or not - if the customer feels it is better, then that is what we should supply.

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Matt Fields
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 545
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 07-09-2006 01:58 AM

But isn't digital getting a boost because it's new? Some people want to check it out.

I think that a lot of presentation/technical minded film people fall victim to the "fallacy of composition": they think the part (themselves) applies to the whole (general customers).

Or put differently, a vast majority of customers don't care if they are watching [dlp]

or film.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-09-2006 08:55 AM

quote: Shane Cooper
I have had 6 of the Christie projectors for two weekends, and the demand for DLP is there. We had a lot of questions about what digital is etc., but even in week two customers are asking for it and waiting for digital screenings.

Shane,

I have a legitimate question for you the operator....

I'm curious...what exactly do you tell your customers?

Hopefully you are not bull shitting your customers or leading them into believeing the wait is worth it, the printed hype is correct, and the dlp system is actually superior to film.... I would hope that for those that ask about it you might take the time and tell them the real facts... or are you reinforcing the lies and false rumors that seem to go along with all the present dlp locations? Indeed the word "Digital" is and always been a misleading buzz word thats easily picked up by the average consumer and leads him to believe that "digital" is better. He instantly associates that word with all the false hype he/she has read in the media. Since the average consumer is the one unknowingly getting screwed when attending a DLP showing and since most of the average consumers out there when educated about something can make the proper choice I wonder what they'd do if they knew it was really inferior to film...?

Personally I feel a disclaimer similar to the ones used on AMC and Turner that says "The Film Has Been Reformatted To Fit Your TV screen" might also apply to present DLP installs except that it would say "The Resolution OF This Feature Film Has Been Reduced To 50% Of Normal To Accomodate Your Theater's Digital Projector".

Thanks!

Mark

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 07-09-2006 10:37 AM

A 50% reduction compared to what though?

a) Camera negative
b) EK/Showprint (are these the same thing?)
c) Typical well-made release print

If it's a or b, then it probably doesn't matter since nobody in the general public will ever see that.

If it's c, that's a different story.

Hey, I'm just asking. [Wink]

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Mark Lensenmayer
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1605
From: Upper Arlington, OH
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 07-09-2006 11:03 AM

One of the local alternative newspapers sponsors "sneak previews" of many current films. They give away tickets at local vendors and show the film a day or two before the general opening.

This week, there was one specifically for a DLP screening of PIRATES at the local Rave. It mentioned DLP a number of times, and was partially sponsored by Texas Instruments DLP unit. This was about a 1/2-page ad.

Only 1 DLP locally, and it is getting new product about every week this summer.

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