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Author Topic: Gas Prices in your area Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 05-07-2007 05:26 PM                     Liquified Petroleum Gas (Propane and Butane); I'm not sure which is used in cars, propane has a higher vapour pressure than butane, and can be used at lower temperatures.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 05-08-2007 02:30 AM                        quote: Stephen Furley Leo, do you have any problems finding fuel for it. It's not something that I'm looking out for, but I seldom seem to see LPG signs outside filling stations. Not in this neck of the woods: I'd guess it's available in about a quarter of filling stations within a 50-mile radius of York. Given that Yorkshire is pretty rural and lots of people commute relatively long distances, there's probably a bigger market for LPG than there would be in more urban areas. When I did the sums it became clear that the capital investment in the conversion (£1,200) only makes economic sense for a driver doing over 15k miles a year. The tax break means that my car costs around 6-7p a mile for fuel on LPG, rising to 11-12p when running on petrol. At that rate, the LPG conversion will cover its costs in about two years assuming 15k miles annually; but if you're doing nearer the UK average of 8-10k, you're looking at 3 to 4 years, which is longer than most people keep their cars. I've only found one garage in London near my mother's house which sells it, although I gather that there has been a surge in conversions recently, because 'alternative fuel' vehicles get a discount on the congestion charge. quote: Stephen Furley Can you still use petrol as well, or will it only run on LPG now? Yes; it'll still run on petrol. The conversion consists of a pressurised, 70-litre gas cylinder in the boot (enough gas for around 300 miles), a replacement engine management computer and a regulator/injector device which sits on the cylinder block. The LPG system has separate injectors (installing them involves drilling a hole through the engine block straight into the cylinders), but uses the same exhaust valves as when burning petrol. Because the gas burns at a significantly higher temperature than petrol, the car is started on petrol and the fuel source is switched over when a pre-set temperature is reached. This is usually around 2-3 miles after starting from cold. Apart from the routing the power supply to the existing fuel pump through the new ECU (so that it can be switched off when the fuel source is changed to LPG) the existing fuel system is untouched and it can be changed back to petrol at any time. It will also switch back automatically if you run out of gas. quote: Stephen Furley Liquified Petroleum Gas (Propane and Butane); I'm not sure which is used in cars, propane has a higher vapour pressure than butane, and can be used at lower temperatures. It's propane here, though I gather that butane is sometimes used in mainland Europe.  |  IP: Logged Damien Taylor Master Film Handler Posts: 493 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2007 posted 05-08-2007 05:42 AM                     The West Australian government, more precisely the department of consumer protection along with the local radio and TV stations run Fuel Watch. Is this initiative being run anywhere else in the world? It seems like a great idea, has saved me heaps in the past. The website says its unique, I just wasn't sure if they were tooting their horn.  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 05-08-2007 02:29 PM                     quote: Leo Enticknap 70-litre gas cylinder in the boot (and for us folks across the pond, the "boot" is the trunk, the "bonnet" is the hood. 70L..about 18.5 US gal) Interesting that LPG usage can render high mileage like that where I thought LPG has lower BTU's than gasoline (petrol) contains and the motor would need more LPG for the same BTU output to match the gasoline's BTU.  |  IP: Logged Bill Gabel Film God Posts: 3873 From: Technicolor / Postworks NY, USA Registered: Jan 2002 posted 05-08-2007 02:39 PM                     The last station before going into the Lincoln Tunnel from New Jersey was $3.05 a gallon. (and they pump it for you in this state)  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 05-08-2007 03:47 PM                        Monte: absolutely right - the miles driven per volume of the substance burnt is around 40% lower on LPG than it is on petrol (gasoline), but the much lower tax on LPG you pay here offsets that. When you've done all the maths, you're looking at a 30%-ish reduction in pennies for fuel spent per mile driven on LPG relative to petrol. When I looked into this, I came to the following conclusion: If you drive under 10k miles per year, it's not worth any capital investment in fuel saving technology, because your fuel costs are a relatively small proportion of your total motoring costs. If you drive between 10k and 15k miles per year and tend to buy either new cars or second hand ones in the 30k miles/2 years old bracket, then a reasonably fuel efficient diesel is worth the slightly higher purchase price, but a petrol/LPG probably isn't worth the investment in the conversion unless you're buying a new car and planning to keep it for at least 5-6 years. If you do over 15k miles a year and/or buy high mileage cars and do some or all of your own maintenance to keep them on life support, a petrol engined car with an LPG kit makes sense. Added to which, if you need to drive into central London regularly, where having an LPG-powered car lets you off the £8 per day charge, LPG could also make sense for that reason. Britain hasn't really got into biofuel yet - when we do, it'll be interesting to see if there are any tax carrots or sticks involved with that.  |  IP: Logged Damien Taylor Master Film Handler Posts: 493 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2007 posted 05-08-2007 08:31 PM                     Doesn't LPG slash your performance and engine life expectancy?, Or have the oil companies succeeded in making me swallow their propaganda  |  IP: Logged Bill Enos Film God Posts: 2081 From: Richmond, Virginia, USA Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-08-2007 09:54 PM                     Performance will be somewhat lower but engine life should be the same or better since there should be no dilution of the oil by liquid fuel.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 05-09-2007 01:10 AM                        Agreed. You notice the acceleration performance drop when the car changes from petrol to gas. There's a hill on the drive out of town here which, running on petrol, can be driven happily in fourth gear. Running on gas, it needs third. As for engine wear, the oil still looks completely clear when it's replaced every 5k miles, just as if it was brand new out of the bottle.  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 05-12-2007 06:58 PM                     Here's a page that someone coverted a vehicle to LPG usage. Quite interesting. - Monte  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-13-2007 12:02 PM                     305.9 without the discount card... Both Smith's and Maverick near my house have been having a gas war for the better part of a year and keeping the price down. 3 cents cheaper with the card or buying $25.00 worth of groceries at Smith's... so its more reasonable here than many other areas around Utah.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 05-13-2007 01:36 PM                     The price here in Lawton shot up to $3.11 for 87 octane. Meanwhile, oil is currently trading at $62.37 per barrel. I was used to $3.00 per gallon gasoline when oil was trading in the $75 per barrel range. It doesn't make any sense for the prices of gasoline to be as high as they are with oil being priced as low as it is. I think the oil companies are deliberately making less gasoline to inflate the prices and their profits.  |  IP: Logged Jason Burroughs Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 654 From: Allen, TX Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-14-2007 06:29 PM                     Yikes! At $3.11 that's over $130 a barrel(US)!! Nothing like a 100% gross profit.  |  IP: Logged Bob Maar (Maar stands for Maartini) Posts: 28608 From: New York City & Newport, RI Registered: Feb 2001 posted 05-15-2007 02:45 PM                        On 62nd and York on the East side of Manhattan gas is at: Premium $ 3.95 Regular $ 3.55 Economy $ 3.15 and it going to get higher as we move int Summer.  |  IP: Logged Jeremy Weigel Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1062 From: Edmond, OK, USA Registered: Mar 2007 posted 05-15-2007 11:53 PM                     I also find it curious how when there is an increase in the price/barrel that there is an instant reflection in an increase at the pump, BUT when the price/barrel drops there is a significant lag in the drop, if any, in the price at the pump. We're difinelty gett'n .  |  IP: Logged

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