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Author Topic: Anyone consuming HD or Blu-ray? Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-11-2007 12:13 PM                     I have a problem with spending lots of $$ with a brand new unknown company!! Its an even bigger problem for me when its someone elses $$ because the added responsibility factor is inversely proportionate to the amount of money charged for the product. I would stick with the Panasonic 3-DLP PT-DW10000E HERE or on the cheap side the new Sanyo PLV-Z2000 3-LCD projector which has greatly extended contrast ratio. These represent the most expensive to the least expensive decent 16X9 projectors that are non D-Cinema that I'd consider. The Panasonic is pretty close in price, I believe within 10K, to the the new Christie ZX D-Cinema projector so I don't know that the Panasonic really makes much sense any more... which is why I said what I did in the e-mail. P.S. Another thing to check before purchase is replacement lamp cost. Lamps can eat a department budget alive!  |  IP: Logged Richard Fowler Film God Posts: 2392 From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2001 posted 11-11-2007 02:18 PM                     The guys in Norway behind Projection Design are great and very invovating in their products. They have been behind many private brands in addition to being rebadged by Barco, Digital Projection and Christie. Many of their projectors are being used for alternative and primary cinema needs in Europe, Asia, and Latin America.  |  IP: Logged Cameron Glendinning Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 845 From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia Registered: Dec 2005 posted 11-11-2007 04:28 PM                     We have projection design's cineo 3 720p projectors for e cinema and preshow at the cinema I work at. The server recognises it as a christie. I sourced them well before panasonic even released a widescreen model similar. Picture and lenses are first class. Bulbs are aprox $aust800 each x2, so pretty typical. [ 11-14-2007, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Cameron Glendinning ]  |  IP: Logged Frank Dubrois Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 896 From: Cleveland, OH Registered: Mar 2005 posted 11-11-2007 04:29 PM                    The Samsung 120hz TV's at the local BB are hooked up to a Blu-Ray player playing Pirates. The image looks very nice, however, the picture does not look film like at all. When I watch movies, I'm going for the film look, not the TV broadcast. I think I'll look into a front projector instead.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 11-11-2007 05:00 PM                        Well the TV must be interpolating frames if it looks anything like a "live" telecast or similar.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-11-2007 05:45 PM                     Something is certainly wrong! I can see the grain in the film on my TV when I play back from HD-DVD even with 1080I. Samsung makes some dam good TV's... so its probably not that. How are the Blew Ray's connected to the TV's? Is it via HDMI or some other crapo cable connection? So far HDMI has been the best conection for me as far as picture quality is concerned. Mark  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 11-12-2007 12:30 AM                     Whatever Frank is seeing is definitely NOT anything to do with Blu-Ray. I've seen movies looks great and "film like" on both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. Chances are extremely likely some sales droid at Best Buy had the TV set up incorrectly or something. Such a thing is very common at any big box retailer selling electronics.  |  IP: Logged Frank Dubrois Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 896 From: Cleveland, OH Registered: Mar 2005 posted 11-12-2007 01:24 AM                    The BB sales staff said the TV is hooked directly to the Blu-Ray player via HDMI. I looked, and played with the remote...so its true. The only way I can describe the picture is if you were watch an episode of any sitcom...Three's Company for example. The picture was as fluid as that. It was nothing like a movie. It was disturbing, yet, such a nice picture. The TV's are very expensive, I think this one was $3200 for a 46" or something close to that. I haven't seen a picture on ANY other TV set in the store that looks anything like it. They do have several Blu-Ray and HD-DVD decks hooked up to different TV's including plasma and DLP.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 11-12-2007 02:26 AM                        Many sitcoms were shot on film. Not sure about 3's Company. Basically what you're noticing would be like, say, the difference between watching the nightly news and watching a DVD. It would be better described as "frame rate". Though I find it hard to believe that the TV can interpolate 24fps all the way up to either 60 or 120fps. That's a lot of new frames to create out of nowhere. I guess I'd have to see it for myself in order to put everything in better words about what could possibly be going on.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-12-2007 08:18 AM                     I'm pretty sure that Three's Company was shot on film... Seinfeld always was too.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 11-12-2007 09:24 AM                     Three's Company was videotaped. Not filmed. I've never seen any movie shot on film look video-ish on any Blu-Ray or HD-DVD demo setup. I've seen quite a few of these setups, ranging from expensive ones in stores like Ultimate Electronics to mid-range stuff as Best Buy and Sears.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 11-12-2007 11:45 AM                     Bobby is right on this one, Three's Company was video all the way. Still, whatever the local Circuit City was running on HD-DVD a month ago DID look like video, and yes it was a HDMI hookup.  |  IP: Logged Scott Jentsch Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1061 From: New Berlin, WI, USA Registered: Apr 2003 posted 11-12-2007 01:58 PM                        My take on the WalMart deal was that they were holding a Black Friday-like sale a couple of weeks early. The HD-A2's were available and they offered them below their (WalMart's, not Toshiba's) cost as a way of creating buzz and getting people in the door. This is not uncommon, and they had 3 other products that they were doing the same thing with. WalMarts here in Wisconsin were not supposed to be selling the player for $98 because of a minimum-markup law preventing stores from selling things below cost. I don't understand how this works in light of stores holding Black Friday sales and offering electronics and other products for what has to be less than cost, but that's what people here in Wisconsin were being told. I don't think Toshiba lost any money on this deal aside from whatever deal they made with a large retailer looking to sell x number of units. The A2's are now at WalMart priced at $198, so it doesn't appear to have been a one-time closeout deal on the 2nd, but since the A3 is replacing the A2, I would imagine that the A2 will be replaced at some point. I was fortunate enough to find a local WalMart that didn't get the memo about the pricing. I now have an HD DVD player for each HD device, which is the right ratio to have. The Toshiba HD-A2 and HD-A3 HD DVD players are both 720p / 1080i players. The step-up models will get you 1080p24 (this was added to the HD-A20 and HD-XA2 models by a firmware update, the HD-A30 and HD-A35 will have it from the get-go). Unless you have a display that can take a 1080p24 input, or if your display is bad at doing the 1080i -> 1080p conversion, there isn't a need to buy anything more than the HD-A2/A3 from a video standpoint (there are audio differences on the HD-A35 and -XA2). Confusion about 1080i vs. 1080p on HD media is common, and I wish that Toshiba would just integrate the silicon necessary to remove that confusion, but since that isn't the case, please feel free to read the following text that I put together that explains it a little more and provides links to references: What is the Difference Between 1080p and 1080i, and Does It Matter? I'm happy to quote the entire text, but it's a little lengthy and I didn't want to plug up the discussion with it. To sum it up, 1080i isn't inherently better than 1080p when it comes to HD media (HD DVD and Blu-ray). It's just a matter of where the conversion happens, if the conversion is necessary at all (if you have a display capable of 1080p24, that's the best scenario). quote: Brad Miller Mark, after doing some side by side comparisons, I have found that BluRay is noticeably a better format. This is regardless of the player you are using (but still using the same feature disc). As such I am not against "high definition dvds", I am against HD-DVD because it's compression is much more noticeable than BluRays. Brad, could you tell me which movies you looked at when doing your comparison? I don't have a lot of personal experience with Blu-ray, but I do with HD DVD (13 months and counting) and I've not noticed any artifacts or other issues with the movies I've watched. I am hoping that your recent comment about seeing HD DVD at a Circuit City isn't your only experience with the format. No retail store should ever be used as an example of what a format is capable of! Furthermore, every review that I have read of movies that are available on both formats has been equal in its judgement of picture quality. Studios often use the same master for both transfers, and in some cases, they used the same encodings! Just because Blu-ray has the capacity for 50GB doesn't mean that every movie is on a 50GB disc. Many are done on single-layer 25GB discs, so there is actually less capacity available to the studio than on a dual-layer 30GB HD DVD. Yields are not the greatest on 50GB discs, and only a few pressing plants are capable of making them. This fact isn't a huge issue now, but unless they can figure it out, it's going to be a bigger issue when the volume goes up to anywhere approaching DVD levels! It's easy to get caught up in the specs and lose sight of the reality. If you can tell me which movies you were using for your comparison (and hopefully that it was under conditions that you could control, not some lacky at CC), I'd be interested in doing some further investigation myself. I'm not saying that you're wrong, because I don't know what you've seen, but I'd like to dig into it further if you don't mind.  |  IP: Logged Frank Dubrois Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 896 From: Cleveland, OH Registered: Mar 2005 posted 11-12-2007 02:23 PM                    For me, the picture quality is so similar that I can not distinguish. My choice to go Blu-Ray was based on available movies and movie companies on the Blu-Ray bandwagon. The fact that the Samsung BD-P1400 is the same price as a Toshiba A30 helped a little to. Blu-Ray seems to be picking up some steam while HD-DVD seems to be losing it. That's just my feeling, and since I bought a Blu-Ray player, I hope I'm right.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 11-12-2007 06:37 PM                        Yes, 1080p matters. 1080p24 isn't the only 1080p in the world. What about 1080p30 and 1080p60? Also, with a 1080i-only set 720p suffers as well since 1080i can only show 540 horizontal lines at any given moment. 720p can show 720 of them 60 times a second. You lose during the upconversion to 1080i. Even if the argument only resolved around 1080p24, then 1080p still wins because interlace flicker is annoying and should be illegal. I would vote to outlaw interlacing in any form. It really has absolutely no right to exist.  |  IP: Logged

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