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Author Topic: Anyone consuming HD or Blu-ray? Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-27-2007 10:30 AM                     The free movie list with Blew Ray sucks beyond anything I've ever seen. There is perhaps one decent movie on the list... perhaps Bobby is right on the sucky movie thing. HD-DVD offers alot better choice of free titles including Casablanca, Blazing Saddles, etc, etc. quote: Joe Redifer That's like saying my computer can't resize photos in Photoshop as well because it can also edit movies with the same chipset. Joe... You're absolutely correct! What you will see with your CPU is that it has to work alot harder to do certain things than others... Or for instance... some CPU's will work well with integers and some will not... Thats why there is Apple, Intel, AMD, Sun Micro Systems and Digital Equipment Corp... The big systems are many times job specific so they can run very efficiently. The average Apple or PC is actually very inefficient at handling lots of data. Mark  |  IP: Logged Bruce Hansen Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 847 From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 12-27-2007 12:29 PM                     [QUOTE] [The one thing I *wish* they would do is eliminate trailers at the beginning of DVD's. /QUOTE] On most DVD players, you can hit STOP, STOP, PLAY, and the player will go right to the movie. I was thinking about the BETA-VHS "war" this morning. What won the war for VHS was that their cassette was larger, could hold more tape, and have a longer record time. Will this end the same way for HD-DVD (30G) -vs- Blue Ray (50G)? I know that if I were looking for a new data storage format there would be no question which one I would choose.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 12-27-2007 02:59 PM                     quote: Mark Gulbrandsen The big systems are many times job specific so they can run very efficiently. The average Apple or PC is actually very inefficient at handling lots of data. I think that's over-simplifying the difference. If a Sun SPARC machine were made to perform the widely varied tasks of mainstream Macs and PCs it would run into lots of problems. Sun sells a variety of AMD and Intel based computers. Personal computers have been very parallel in nature for the past several years with so many tasks being directed away from the CPU to other expansion boards and chips on the motherboard. Lately these specialty chips, Graphics Processing Units in particular, have grown so powerful they're now wanting to encroach on the job functions of the CPU itself. AMD is developing new ATI Radeon chips for such varied purposes. So is nVidia. The newest programmable DSP chips for various kinds of multimedia devices have grown far more powerful and very parallel on their own. The task of decoding one lossless 8-channel audio track and a 1080p video codec is pretty easy for these things to do. They're powerful enough to handle several of these streams simultaneously without dropping a single bit. As long as the data is in the digital realm, it isn't going to matter where the data is being shuttled around, be it in the inside of a multi-purpose device or through a daisy chain of separate digital devices. The ones and zeros of the data in the audio/video bit stream aren't going to change. It's only when and after the signal is converted from digital to analog that having separate devices (like separate power amps) will yield some benefit. The laser pickup and its analog to digital conversion is the only obvious potential weak spot in a dual format HD-DVD/Blu-Ray player. I don't think that's all that big an issue. quote: Bruce Hansen I was thinking about the BETA-VHS "war" this morning. What won the war for VHS was that their cassette was larger, could hold more tape, and have a longer record time. That certainly helped in that old war, but doesn't apply very well to the current situation. DVRs and large capacity external hard discs are becoming increasingly popular. Write-once and rewritable optical discs are less appealing as a result. The boom in iPods and various MP3 players have worsened the situation further. The situation with Sony being virtually alone in making consumer Beta players wasn't good either. The public saw all the different brands supporting VHS and got the impression that was the stronger format. Toshiba is now in nearly the same situation with HD-DVD. Other companies are only supporting HD-DVD via dual format players. If others make a player supporting a single format, it's going to be Blu-Ray. Toshiba is the only one making players that do HD-DVD only. Ultimately, the quality of movies themselves will drive the success of either format. The Summer of 2008 looks like it could be a pretty good one for feature movies and that will help drive HD product sales during the fall. Despite a strong slate of upcoming movie releases, I remain unconvinced there will be any winner in the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray format war. I believe dual format players will become much more popular due to this. There is a rumor Warner Bros is re-evaluating their support for both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD formats on WB and New Line Cinema movie titles. Some kind of announcement could be made during the upcoming Winter CES 2008 in Las Vegas. If they go HD-DVD only, get used to seeing dual format players. They'll eventually be the only HD movie players you can buy. If they make a more surprising move to go exclusively with Blu-Ray then could signal the beginning of the end to HD-DVD.  |  IP: Logged Bruce Hansen Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 847 From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 12-27-2007 07:50 PM                     From TV tech : Next-Gen Disc Buyers Still Advised to Wait December 27, 2007 While the sales numbers for this holiday season are still being tallied and evaluated, one thing that has not seemed to change much since last year has been the words of caution from industry observers on purchasing a next-gen disc player. Like last year, the advice this season from Consumer Reports magazine is that it would still be prudent for would-be buyers of HD DVD or Blu-ray Disc players to hold off awhile longer. And a lot of local newspapers are giving the same advice, judging from their Web sites. (Prominent film critic Roger Ebert also let it be known that he’s playing the wait-and-see game, as well.) Proclamations based on early, incomplete sales figures from both camps have been fast and furious this month, with each side sometimes using identical numbers to demonstrate how their respective format is outdoing the other. Bottom line for the holiday season: Nothing conclusive can be drawn from whatever initial sales numbers are known, and the war still does not appear to be on the brink of ending anytime soon. “Right now I would say ‘wait,’” Parks Associates analyst Chris Roden told the San Jose Mercury News. “If you can be patient and see what happens in the next 12 months, you’ll be rewarded because you’ll be less likely to buy a product that’s obsolete.” According to Nielsen VideoScan, combined sales of HD DVD and Blu-ray players in 2007 (before final holiday numbers are in) represent less than three percent of U.S. households, including those Blu-ray players that came automatically with the purchase of the PlayStation 3 game console.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 12-27-2007 10:00 PM                        The is one of the most retarded things I have ever read. If everybody waits, neither will sell ANY units and both will die forever.  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-27-2007 10:30 PM                        That would be good. DVDs as they stand today are just fine with about 97% of people. They'll tide us over until we can move on to the eventual final thing, which will be something that does away with spinning disks all together. You also have to remember that some of that article's info came from Consumer Reports, which is not exactly the early adopter's bible.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 12-27-2007 11:44 PM                     Exactly. Honestly, BOTH the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray formats are really doing quite well relatively speaking when you compare their product development time lines with that of the early days of DVD-V. Just look at how many HD quality titles that have been released over the past year. Basically you're looking at a solid 2 year "early adopter" period for the products to reach proper maturity level and deliver the features they were intended to deliver. That was certainly the case with regular DVD. It was a suck-ass bullshit format in 1997, but by the middle of 1999 it was looking pretty good. The divided situation between major studios (which is the ONLY reason why the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray format war even exists) isn't actually enough to get in the way of general purpose HD-disc players supporting both formats and all of the features of both formats before the end of 2008. If the Summer 2008 movie season turns out to be as strong as I think it will be, the situation with HD optical movie discs will be solved in one way or another before the end of 2008. I still think dual format players will be the rule (especially in light of the HD-DVD 2 year deals with Universal and Paramount). But if Warners goes Blu-Ray only that could signal a Blu-Ray only situation by 2010.  |  IP: Logged Scott Jentsch Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1061 From: New Berlin, WI, USA Registered: Apr 2003 posted 12-28-2007 01:46 AM                        For roughly the cost of a year's worth of one premium cable channel like HBO, one can pick up an entry-level HD DVD player and enjoy the movies that are available for the format now. For the cost of one Blockbuster movie rental a month, one can subscribe to an excellent service like Netflix and rent the movies so they don't have to buy the discs if they don't want to. Six months ago, I told people to wait as well, because things were kind of shaky. When the prices of HD DVD players started going way down and more releases were coming out, the time to wait was over. In that time, I bought my second HD DVD player and both my parents and my in-laws have players as well. Waiting means delaying the ability to enjoy what has been put before us. When the prices get to an acceptable point, the wait is over and it's time to get off the fence. What I am waiting on, however, is for a decent Blu-ray player to be released. I think that CES is going to be quite interesting this year, and I'm hoping that the Blu-ray manufacturers finally start releasing respectable hardware. I shouldn't have to buy a PS3 just to get something that has some life expectancy to it. Would I recommend spending $400 on either format right now? No. At least wait until CES if you're thinking of dropping that kind of money. But for $150-$200, that's not a big investment for what can pay some really great dividends. I just demo'd King Kong for some people today, and it reminded me of how cool having an HD DVD player is. I watched the excellent release of Blade Runner the other week, as well as Ocean's Thirteen and The Bourne Ultimatum. Anyone who considers themselves a fan of movies should see Casablanca on HD DVD. Anyone who enjoyed the Planet Earth series on DiscoveryHD Theater hasn't seen anything until they see what it looks like on HD DVD and Blu-ray! I don't regret not waiting at all. I'm looking forward to the day when I can enjoy movies like Cars, Ratatouille, and Cast Away. Maybe that makes me an early adopter, but these technologies have been out for more than 18 months. I don't consider that early adopter any more. Yeah, it sucks to have to buy players for both formats. I can either whine about it, or I can suck it up and pay out. I choose the latter.  |  IP: Logged Mark J. Marshall Film God Posts: 3188 From: New Castle, DE, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 12-28-2007 09:36 AM                    I agree that dual format players becoming the norm is a possibility. If WB goes all HD-DVD then that will probably happen. If they go Blu, then HD-DVD will probably die a very slow death. But what's the next logical step for all of the studios once a bunch of people buy the dual format players? It seems to me that since everyone can play both formats, some studios will opt for the one that has the higher capacity and better throughput. So no matter what happens, wouldn't there will be a shift toward Blu-Ray anyway?  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-28-2007 10:13 AM                     I did the firmware upgrade on my BDP-S300 last night to ver. 3.7... I don't see any increase in functionability speed or anything else change for that matter. On Ratitoulie there is still that several minute dowload crawler before the movie starts. To do the upgrade you have to download the data which is an ISO image and then burn that onto a CD. Pity the folks that don't have the ability to do this! Then put the CD into the player and it happenss automatically from there. Took about 15 min. This is one point where the primitave aspects of Blew Ray show up. The total firmware file is but 54 mb in size... the Toshiba's live update takes close to 45 minutes over my 150mbs DSL line. Its obvious the Toshiba firmware packages are much larger... possibly due to the much more intelligent menu structure they are using which would make the firmware package much larger (Joe's very favorite aspect of DVD's). BTW: The studios always had differeing "formats" for things... Look back at Paramount with Vistavision, Fox had Cinemascope, and MGM was using Panavision. This is a similar circumstance except this time around the "format war" has landed in the hands of the consumer.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 12-28-2007 10:27 AM                        quote: Mark Gulbrandsen This is one point where the primitave aspects of Blew Ray show up. No, that's one point where the primitive aspects of the BDP-S300 show up. Didn't you say that was made by Samsung? SAMSUNG??? Seriously dude, I'd rather poop out full sized footballs for the rest of my life than purchase something made by friggin' Samsung. They're better than LG (Low Grade), but they are still to be biased against based on their ethnicity and cool stuff like that. quote: Mark Gulbrandsen 150mbs DSL line 150mbps? Maybe you mean 1.5mbps.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-28-2007 01:04 PM                     No Joe... The BDP-S300 is made by Sony! Frank Du Boy is the one with the Sammy song player. Yes I meant 150mbps.... . Mark  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 12-28-2007 03:52 PM                     If it's taking Toshiba's "live update" feature over 45 minutes to feed data through a connection with an alleged 150 million bit per second data rate, then that Toshiba update program must be really shitty. At that rate, it would take many hours for the Toshiba thingie to work at average DSL speeds.  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 12-28-2007 03:58 PM                     I believe the Toshiba firmware update takes that long from a local disc, as well. I expect it is because the EEPROM or flash or whatever they're using is very slow. That seems a reasonable compromise. --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-28-2007 04:06 PM                     I guess the DSL speed has nothing to do with the actual load time... that time is controled by the destination device... but typically my speed here is around 150mbps. The last Toshiba firmware load consisted of 44 files... the readout counts through them as they are being loaded. Also, stopping the Toshiba in the middle of an upgrade doesn't kill it which is a pretty good feature. It obviously doesn't load in the new firmware untill its all been downloaded and then verified. With the Sony the inconvenience of having to burn a disk from an ISO is pretty silly in this day and age. Mark  |  IP: Logged

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