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Topic: Anyone consuming HD or Blu-ray?

Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 12-28-2007 05:34 PM

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
typically my speed here is around 150mbps.

I call BS. Prove it.

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Sam D. Chavez
Film God

Posts: 2153
From: Martinez, CA USA
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 12-28-2007 05:52 PM

Joe,

I switched to cable modem for the same reason. 150mps was good for the end of the line. Sometimes it was slower than that.

C-Net and others have meters to measure speed up and down.

(I meant 150k not M as well)

[ 01-01-2008, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Sam D. Chavez ]

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 12-28-2007 07:26 PM

Do you guys even know what you are saying when you say "150mbps"? That is over 18 MEGABYTES PER SECOND. It would take less than 30 seconds to download a 700 MB CD. It would take about 9 minutes to download a full 9.4 GB DVD. My cable modem, Comcast, comes with 6mbps unless you want to pay more and get 10. My friend who has DSL is lucky to see 768kbps. When I had DSL is was severely slow. We have DSL down at work and we have it maxed out at around 1.5mbps. DSL sucks. It is gawdawful. Cable is much better, but I don't think any standard consumer is getting 150mbps from it.

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 12-28-2007 07:54 PM

Well there's VDSL2: Very High Speed Digital Subscriber Line 2. But I can't find anything to confirm VDSL2 service is offered in Salt Lake City or elsewhere in Utah.

VDSL2 Hardware

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David Zylstra
Master Film Handler

Posts: 432
From: Novi, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 12-28-2007 07:59 PM

Supposedly VDSL2 can do 200+mbs if you are within .5km of the CO or a fiber connected node.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 12-28-2007 08:55 PM

You guys are right! Donno what I was thinking... I meant 150kbps.

Mark

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 12-28-2007 09:23 PM

Hey....Denon has just offered their new Reference Blu-Ray DVD players...not quite Mark's $99.00 price though

Denon DVD-3800BDCI

This has not knocked the old DVD-Referece player out but is surely the shape of things to come.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 12-28-2007 09:50 PM

I doubt I'll have the money available to buy Denon's "universal everything" player they're currently developing, but it will be interesting to see once it is released.

quote: Joe Redifer
DSL sucks. It is gawdawful. Cable is much better, but I don't think any standard consumer is getting 150mbps from it.

That claim is only relative to a customer's specific location.

If you want cable modem service in my town, you're stuck with Lawton Cablevision. It is SHIT. The security standards on it are a joke as well (I'd certainly want to be using a Mac if I had it connected to their service).

I have AT&T's DSL service and have been subscribing to it since 1999. My speeds back in 1999 were mere 384kb/s downstream and 128kb/s upstream. Now I get 3 million bit per second service for about $25 a month. I'm contemplating their "DSL Ultra" service that delivers 6 Mb/s service for a few dollars more. Cable service in my town is not able to match that, and sure as hell will not do that at all in terms of price.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 12-28-2007 11:11 PM

I wish I could get the higher speed DSL but I'm too far from the main switch... the farther you are the slower it gets... mine is typically 150 kbps.

Mark

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 12-31-2007 11:25 PM

We all know that MPEG2 sucks ass. But which is the better codec between the following two choices?

MPEG4 AVC
or
VC1

The SpiderMan 3 Blu-Ray disc that came free (thank science) with my PS3 uses the MPEG4 AVC codec and it was probably the sharpest image I have ever seen on my TV (direct HDMI connection). The movie still sucked balls, though. I haven't seen any VC1 discs yet, but I hear VC1 is da bomb.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-01-2008 01:53 AM

VC-1 better be "da bomb" to give HD-DVD any hope for long term survival. For dual layer discs a giant 20GB deficit between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray is a very serious problem...especially when no existing HD-DVD players can support those 51GB triple layer discs.

Paramount/Dreamworks had such a stupidly needless misfire with that recent Jack Ryan box set of HD-DVD discs. Packaged originally for Blu-Ray with all those extras. But with all the extras dumped because they couldn't fit on HD-DVD. Yeah. Really really great.

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Mark J. Marshall
Film God

Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 01-02-2008 11:17 AM

I wish someone would fix the damn bootup times on these things. When I walk up to a player that's off, and push the eject button, there is no reason on planet Earth why I should have to wait 90 seconds for the tray to open. It should just open immediately.

I was given Disney's Rat movie and Harry Potter 5 for Christmas, and I thought it was interesting that it takes about five full minutes to get to the movie with the Disney movie (and that's if you skip and hop as quickly as you possibly can through the various menus and screens and warnings and crap) and Harry comes up and starts the movie almost instantly. No menus, and very quick FBI warning screens.

Thanks, Warner Brothers! [thumbsup]

Disney, nice movie with a beautiful picture and sound, but speed wise you need to get your act together. [thumbsdown]

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Mike Heenan
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1896
From: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 01-02-2008 12:27 PM

Yeah, WB seems to have their act together with BR/HD authoring. I just tried a few other discs over the weekend (casino royale, Hairspray) and both of those didn't start up at the movie but pretty much started up normally and not too much slower than a normal SD dvd, but I can't figure out why Disney's discs take forever, is this sort of a "cache" thing with the player?

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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 01-02-2008 02:14 PM

quote: Joe Redifer
We all know that MPEG2 sucks ass. But which is the better codec between the following two choices?

MPEG4 AVC
or
VC1

I've seen frame-level comparisons between the two, and I've seen movies encoded with each (but not the same movie encoded with each for direct comparison), and I've read more discussion on the matter than I care to think about. Based on those discussions, I would say that the VC-1 encoder was a better overall solution, as it seemed better at encoding edges due to multiple block sizes, and the PQ was better than AVC at lower bitrates.

AVC encodes can use a loop filter, which can remove quite a bit of film grain as part of its activity. While this makes the encode process more efficient, and probably results in a less noisy image, removing film grain isn't a good thing IMO.

My understanding is that AVC tends to compress just a little bit better (maybe as a result of said loop filtering), but it takes more horsepower to encode and decode. The latter point isn't an issue for standalone players and game systems, but it may be a factor when using a PC. Fortunately, the video card makers are building hardware decoding into their cards, so this isn't as much of an issue if you're willing to pony up for a $200+ video card.

I think in the end, though, there isn't much of a difference between them. There have been examples of bad encodes using both codecs and examples of excellent encodes using both codecs. I think that, in the hands of competent personnel, either one can produce a very good image. The reviews I've seen where there was a VC-1 encode and an AVC encode of the same movie, the video rankings were the same.

Supposedly, Microsoft just released some improvements to their VC-1 encoder this Fall that makes encoding much easier. From what I understand, there are now many less instances where the encoding technician needs to go back and tweak for best results with the best compression. I don't know how that process relates to AVC encoding.

Keep in mind that AVC and VC-1 can both be used on both formats. They are not format-specific.

quote: Mark J. Marshall
I was given Disney's Rat movie and Harry Potter 5 for Christmas, and I thought it was interesting that it takes about five full minutes to get to the movie with the Disney movie (and that's if you skip and hop as quickly as you possibly can through the various menus and screens and warnings and crap) and Harry comes up and starts the movie almost instantly.

Disney has been doing that since their VHS days. At least it sounds like you can skip them now. Their early DVDs couldn't skip past the up-front ads, which is very aggravating when you're just trying to get the movie started. Even kids get restless after the 6th or 7th ad!

quote: Steve Guttag
Hey....Denon has just offered their new Reference Blu-Ray DVD players...not quite Mark's $99.00 price though

Denon DVD-3800BDCI

This has not knocked the old DVD-Referece player out but is surely the shape of things to come.

I certainly hope that the images posted on the Denon site are preliminary, because a look at the back panel shows the lack of an ethernet jack. This means no Profile 2.0 (BD Live) for this player.

$2,000 for a player that will not be able to play discs that will be released within this year? No thanks. It's this kind of wrong-headed thinking that has produced a market full of Blu-ray players that aren't worth my money. I really don't understand what's so hard about making a full-featured player, even price doesn't seem to be an object...

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-02-2008 09:07 PM

quote: Mike Heenan
Yeah, WB seems to have their act together with BR/HD authoring.

All of Warners HD disks look amazing! Get "Bullett" and see what you think... I think it looks better than any film prints I've owned or ever seen. It's also obviously transfered from an IB print... for an old picture its a knockout, the sound is also far higher quality than the old mono optical track ever was. The Searchers is still by far and away the best looking HD disk in either format. Its done from the B&W 8 perf seps and is razor sharp. The color also looks better than it has in a long time. Grand Prizx is another great looking transfer... I don't know if it was done by Warners or not or if it came from a 65mm B&W set or what but several times you do get to see the Panavision Hand Held 65mm camera roving amongst the crowd scenes. On the BD of Casino Royale it has lossless digital audio so that may have taken up some extra room and picture may have reqired some extra compression as a result... I didn't think the image was all that bad though.

quote: Mike Heenan
I can't figure out why Disney's discs take forever, is this sort of a "cache" thing with the player?

Thats what I was also thinking.... inda looks like it's doing that.

Disney has been doing that since their VHS days. At least it sounds like you can skip them now. Their early DVDs couldn't skip past the up-front ads, which is very aggravating when you're just trying to get the movie started. Even kids get restless after the 6th or 7th ad!

On my Pioneer DVD player I couldn't skip through them but I could still scan through them at 8X normal speed. Makes getting through them a breeze. You could also download DVD Ripper and make yourself a play copy without the previews. Many folks do that so their kids don't destroy the original. Legally you are allowed a backup copy of what ever you purchase....

Mark

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